Thinking of Shelby Daytona Coupe continuation car

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nRverSXa5EY


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lez1gitLJE8

 

thought about these too.

there are some owners on here and they responded to a thread i started on them a while back, you might find it if you search.

but the verdict was they are tough to live with. hard riding. not for girly passengers. hard core. sounds like a lot of fun, but its a hard car.

 

Superformance?

 

One of my favorite designs. Have heard the same about being a hard car, but it's a race car, right.
Would be cool to have in conjunction with something a little easier to live with so you had your choice.

 

My experience with superformance(GT40) was they are not enginered for and do not hold up on track. Lots of things from cheapo spec brake calipers,master cylinders, to wheel bearings, to frame materials. SPF cars do make great road cruisers though, which is what nearly all of them are used for.

If I were thinking of a car to be driven on track, then the Kirkham is the way to go.,

For street yes the SPF has ac etc.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAh4npN-nUA[/ame]

 

I looked at the Cobras and GT40s awhile back. I thought the SPF cars were almost identical to the originals? Same steel monocoque with newer brake components? They did pretty good on the track 50 years ago. I've never heard someone refer to either as street cruisers. They seem about as raw as it gets.

 

Ok but a few examples.

In period a Gt40 hung the transmission from the rear crossbar as spf does, but the bellhousing was also tied to the rear subframe with two ears that came off the bellhousing, something SPF does not do or have provision for. So the whole mtoro and transmsiion is hanging at the rear from a crossmember that was never designed for such stress.

Take a spf car to the track and that rear crossbar starts to distorte in 10 laps or less. The answer from spf was to weld a plate on to the crossbar. But if you look at the design its asking a lot for a piece which is light and has little support. Enen if you reinforce the crossbrace all you are doing is this then stressing the shock towers which arr also known to fail, unless you reinforce those and so on and so forth.

SPF fits willwood brakes to its cars, but the cheap calipers. The SPF answer is that these brakes have more power than the originals, true, but they cant hold up on a track enviroment repeatedly jamming due to dust or debris. Also the whole hydraulic system is poorly designed leading to failure. Lastly willwood master cyliders are crap, all 3(2 brakes and clutch) failed on my car in 200 miiles. maybe these bits are ok for a street rod but not track.

Then there was the wheel bearings they copied the design but used pot metal for the locking nut tab, on track the tab breaks and the bearing starts undoing itself if you dont stop the wheel comes off.

Uprights are copied but in really thin aluminum and are metric not imperial, more than a few stories of these crumbling, take one apart and you can see why.

Look at the wleds on the tub, a 3rd grader who didnt care would be less sloppy and nothing is true.

Then supension mountings sart tearing because different metals used and poor welding.

I can keep going on. The SPF GT40 is probbaly fine for the road but far from being up to track use. Yes they copied the car, and yes they drive the same, but they are definatly not built the same, lots of shortcuts, lesser materials and sloppy work. Hell they even took shortcuts on the sill shifter which is now just a rod that quickly bends.

Its copy with shortcuts, built down to price by people who dont care. SPF is great at marketing dreams. You could spend 50K upgrading a SPF GT40 for track duty and it will still fail.

There is a reason why people pay Gelescoe or Hollman 400k for a GT40 to take to the track.

My experince with SPF is these cars look great, steer well and are fine for street cruising and a few thousand miles per year, they are far far from track durable/capable. they are nostalgic dreams for the road and car shows.

And i am just giving you the highlights.

That to use your name is Truth Telling.

 

Tell them how you really feel!!!! ;O)

William, I would buy one from Shelby in vegas. Expensive, but no/few teething problems as Sean mentioned with SPF products. Also, the value will hold much better. I have a couple of gt40s/cobras as well. A good problem to have! Scott

 

Wow you seem very disgruntled. Isn't there a couple racing in SVRA? I think there are some with FIA papers in Europe racing as well. There's always RCR but not sure if they are eligible for vintage racing. Maybe just get GT3 Porsche and drive the wheels off it.

 

After a 7 month wait for the roller a 1 year wait on the build(with carte blanch on the best bits) and then two seasons where the car never managed more than 75 miles before some componant broke, essentialy 250K to go 500 miles. After listening to a bunch of used car salesman bull**** from the factory and importer, and then taking a 100k hit I am more angry at my self for stupidity in blindly following a dream. There is a reason that you dont see these cars on track.

Rebuilding the car and reinginering all the failed bits and then seeing the suspension start tearing away I came to the conclusion and the race shop workig ont he car said to me, even if I spent another 50k to fix everything they did wrong in SA the car still would fail.
I think the tech words were its a pos. They guy who was chassis development engineer on the new FGT literaly crossed himself when he saw the welds.


The best compoanant of the car was the super duper 302 custom motor keith craft built for me, 575 hp and 460 ftlbs of Tq. When the rest of the car worked it was epic, but you were never sure when the brakes would fail, at least they failed slowly with the pedal going mushy and to the floor on 3 occasions. And yes I ran race fluid and bled them each day.

The SPF Gt40 can replicate one 60s experinence and that will be when the upright or some other critical componant fails on track and you cartwheel off the track in a ball of flame.

There are two SPF in state of constant rebuild which run with SVRA, one of which had the hub fail on track and both of which need bearing and other attention every outing. The cars in europe with FIA papers come from gelscoe, there was one SPF car which someone spent 100k extra to get FIA papers for, its no longer runing.

Here in the USA pathfinder motorsports spent the $$$ to develop the GT40R with SPF after a 2 year effort they threw in the towel.

No one wants to talk, the dealers and those who work on them want to keep it going and SPF in LA is brutal on any tech who talks out of school, the owners wont talk because they want to sell their cars or maintain investment. And then anything posted can turn up later so why say anything.

As I said, fine for the street no good on track. Considder they have sold near on 400 GT40 "race cars" yet with 3 exceptions no one tracks them, why.

Maybe the cobras and Daytona coupe are different, but I woudl question that. From what I saw at SPF its all built to look nice but down to a price which does not work on track.



If I were getting a daytona coupe with the intention of runign on track I would go Kirkham, they also have the resale. RCR cars look like GT40s but are modern underneath, may be fun to drive.

As to SPF, if you want to go to the track draw your own conclusion, I have been on track now for 12 years in various cars, and that was my experience.

Went back to the path of righteousness and a got a lotus exige V6 cup.

 

Sorry but that's funny lol. Probably true for any 60s era race cars. I have read that a 20mph front impact in a 917 could be fatal. The drivers front legs hung out over the front axles. Hard to compare modern car engineering and safety to those of 50 years ago. Sounds like you made the right choice getting a new Lotus. There is some video out there of a new Viper up on a lift and the welds underside are not good at all. Did you sell your SPF?

 

Was just reading about Goodwood and the GT40 racing. The #1, #7, #11, and #25 cars are all SPF cars mixed in with some Gelscoe's and several originals. Sounds like all are required to run period correct bias ply tires from the 60's which don't have the greatest of grip. Watching the clip below they slide around a lot. Just guessing but were you running modern Hoosier slicks with a ton of grip and quite a bit more HP than the original 289's with your Keith Kraft 302? Sorry about the frustration and expense but that sounds less like a SPF problem versus asking a 60's era race car to hold up to a lot more power and stress than it was ever design to stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3q5fTI4sWU

I recently got to go for a ride in the English countryside in a new Lotus Exige 350 and it was stunning in both performance and visual appeal. I can see why you bought one. Like a modern GT40 in that it was very minimalist and purpose built. No extras just pure performance!

 

Apparently the originals can lose wheel bearings when being pushed hard as well. The glowing brake disc is pretty wild!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsZ_XYawvaQ

 

That is not loosing a wheel bearing with wheel falling off due to locking nut tab failure after 50 miles. Thats an overheated bearing or hot bearing comming into contact with a fluid during a "race" which can happen to any car in those conditions, or likely oil on red hot disc when airflow stops, something completly different. Wheel bearings comming loose are the least pf the issues.

Anyway nothign to tell from your profile, get a car, and go to the track and run hard youll see what works and what does not. Try running 50 or 100miles at full tilt on track(not even in a race), that seperates the wheat from the chaff in terms of cars.

When you go to a track day, with any sort of serious drivers there are few types of cars that make up the bulk of machines there for good reason, others are notably absent for good reason.

Another example, while the paper numbers for a rossion are great, I have yet to see one survive a full day on track, or show up twice, tey simply are not egimnered for that enviroment. Whereas there are no shortage of caterhams.
There is avast difference between a "componant" car with lots of hp and tires that can put in a good short term showing, and something enginered to run or last on track. That relates to the componants used and the quality of build.

To Analogise. We could build two 351 ford motors both of which put out 600hp on dyno.. One would use a stock cast crank or eagle forged and various off the shelf bits, the other might use a dart block, forged callies crank, great rods diamond pistons jezel shaft rockers, dry sump etc. For Hp purposes they would use the same heads. To the layman they are both 600hp 351 fords, one costs 10K and the other 25k. In a street car which occasionaly gets floored there would be little to no difference. Put both these motors in a track car running at near peak and one would soon fail, whereas the other would last season to season, needing only a periodic refresh every few years. That by way of analogy is the difference between a SPF Gt40 and say a gelescoe or hollman moody one.

Lots of people here have experince on track, William who is the Op I know has been developing cars on track for decades, he is one of the very few who ran a Tr on track.
I am not posting opinions from photos or 1 hour magazine wank fests. I have posted my actual experience, on track after years of effort with full race tech support and a budget to make it happen. Each can take from that experience and do with it as they wish based on their knowledge, track experience and intended use..

I get that people want the SPF Gt40 to be the dream answered, holy grail thats affordable, and if you drive on street its probably perfectly adequate and will in that enviroment be a "real" Gt40. I cant comment on the other SPF products as I have not run them.

If I were going to be taking a GT40 to the track, personaly based on experince I woudl get one made by Hollman or gelescoe, two companies who have vast track experince and who can technicaly support those products on track. If I were going to be taking a T70 to the track I would get one from lola for the same reason, and if I were takign a Chevron B16 to the track I would get one from Chevron. In each of those cases there are 1/2 price alternatives, usualy offered as fun "street" cars with track aspirations in their marketing.

As i said at the begining, go tot he track, run there see what works and what does not, form your opinions there based on experience. Take of my experience what you will.

 

Sean, I'm astonished that they're not out of business, having drained all their capital defending lawsuits

 

All valid points but you didn't answer the question. Clearly you had a very strong engine with quite a bit more HP than an original 289 but were you also running modern sticky slicks? Hoosiers right? If your point is that a modern track car will handle more stress running slicks and more power than a car designed 50 years ago, you won't get any argument. If you're saying that SPF cars are substantially different in terms of chassis design or durability on track the reality at least at the GT40 races at Goodwood every year suggest otherwise. Again, sorry you thought a 50 year old chassis would handle high HP and modern slick tires without breakage.

 

Do you have a oar in the water on this? Who are you, whats your involvement with SPF?

You are changing question in each post, ie from wheel bearings where you last point was imo either ignorant or purposefully decieving , to now changing tack and getting back to chassis durability. I get youre subtly trying to shoot the messenger.

No I was not running "modern" slicks, they were hoosier bias ply historics, which is what the SPF HSR SVRA cars you pointed to run. As to engine Hp In period they ran 289s up to 425 hp, and 427s ran way more plus more Tq. We also hear that USA SPF Mk1 run in theory the Mk2 (427)chassis upgrades.)

Additonaly most spf cars built have a spf recomended roush 427 which is really a stroked 351 of significantly more power and Tq than I had, and and weigh more. Racing Gt40s at goodwood are at this point way above 600hp some say closer to 700.

SPF was well aware of what was my purpose/goal with the car, and what I was planning to run. They told me it was a "track car" and totaly capable of what I wanted, more than once.

A modern car will handle more stress, but Gt40s were known for being tough (and heavy as a result). It was their toughness that made them so good at 24 hr races.

Any "tracK" car should be able to handle more than 50-75 miles between failures. The tires and motor on my car were well within the bounds of what real racing Gt40s run every year, without incident.

Your quote "If you're saying that SPF cars are substantially different in terms of chassis design or durability on track the reality at least at the GT40 races at Goodwood every year suggest otherwise."

I am saying based on my experience and opinion, they are different in terms of duarbilty on track, and while the chassis design mostly adheres to the origional patterns(hence they drive the same) there are omissions as well as differences in materials and quality of execution. IMO its car built to a price for road, not built to a standard, or to a track standard, but then thats just my experience.

What direct experience do you have with these cars?

What experience do you have on track with cars?

The reality at goodwood vs my car not lasting 50-75 miles on track ever, (after being built up by the recomended premier person for this) points to a different standard of materials and execution standard between the two, I gave a few actual examples, based on my experience and observation.

BTW real Gt40 lasted 24hrs in case you dont remember and afterwards many were run by privateers for years if not through the 70s on track.

Tell us what is your involvement with SPF? or something about yourself?

I just gave some highlights of my experience and my impression/opinion based on same. I am not here to litigate the subject with you or anyone else. This is a website comunity of enthusiasts where we share car stories experiences and opinions, often based on actual experience, thats all I am doing here, and doing so in response to a relevant question. I think thats still allowed in the USA?

You say or imply my experince is endemic to all Gt40s, thats your opinion and the point you are putting forwards.

You have made your point's and I have shared my actual experience and impression based on same, thats all.

Time to move on.

 

So first I am sorry about your expense and experience. I'm not trying to shoot you or anyone. You made some pretty incendiary comments regarding the quality of SPF products that are not in line with many other owners. There are several SPF cars raced regularly in Europe and in the US. They are not cartwheeling off the track in flames as you suggested. It appears your expectations and usage of a 50 year old design were not in line with it's intended purpose. I'm sorry that you were dissapointed but then impugning SPF as you have is not fair either. We should all be thankful there are people and companies out there willing to keep the dream alive whether it's SPF, RCR, Gelscoe, or Kirkham. The opportunity to own and drive a Cobra or Shelby Daytona or GT40, is awesome for all of us. Good luck to you.

 

I'm no expert but I believe the chassis are built by SPF and given a CSX serial number. Shelby adds their own bodies on the Cobras I believe and their own engines in both the Cobras and Daytonas. The Club Cobra board might be a better place to get details. Or just phone Shelby direct.

 

I have a Superformance Cobra and I love it. It's a thrill to drive every time but that being said there is a not a chance in hell I would take it on a race track in anything more than a fun blast around the track for a lap or 2 with nobody else on the track.. LOL. It does not feel like it would be good in any type of racing application. Not without a TON of upgrades. I havent driven one of their Daytona replicas but if its anything like my Cobra it is meant for driving on the street and maybe the odd hot lap but that would be about it.