Why has the Italian 2+2 Exotic fallen out of favour with buyers? | FerrariChat

Why has the Italian 2+2 Exotic fallen out of favour with buyers?

Discussion in 'Australia' started by MrGrigio, May 3, 2015.

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  1. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula 3

    Dec 19, 2011
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    Rennie Stein
    Seeing an Lamborghini Espada today and a brief discussion on the Ferrari FF raised a question I’ve never could quite satisfactorily answer to myself and its this: Why has the 2 + 2 Italian exotic so fallen out of favour?

    Let me crudely elaborate-consider the following production numbers:

    Ferrari 250 GT/E 950
    Ferrari 250 all 2 seaters 1475
    (including 250 Europa to Lusso)

    Ferrari 365 GT 2+2 800
    Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona 1,284

    Ferrari 365 GT/4/400 2,332
    Ferrari BB 365/512/512i 2,323

    Clearly, the Ferrari 2+2’s were once immensely popular with buyers.

    Even consider the Espada-over a ten year span, nearly 1,217 were made and the bulk of those were in the first 5 or so years, before the oil shock of ’73. They made 2049 Countach’s of which 658 were the 25 Anniversary’s made between 88-89 during the height of Classic Car boom Mk 1 . This is before we even consider Jarama’s.

    So why have the Italian 2+2 exotics become so unpopular with buyers?
     
  2. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    They sold in greater numbers when new because they're more practical, but that very practicality makes them less exotic and therefore less desirable in the resale market.

    As a generalisation, 2+2's have less well resolved styling (just think 308GT4 vs GTB) plus (in the case of V12 cars) longer wheelbases = less agile handling.

    The V12 2+2's also compromise weight distribution in order to fit a rear seat in. After the 2 seat cars adopted transaxles for close to 50:50 weight distribution (275 on), the 2+2's continued with a conventional gearbox. Again, less agile handling. Also a transaxle is nicer to use, plus you get the "clickety clack" gated gearshift, which adds to the sense of occasion.
     
  3. simon klein

    simon klein Two Time F1 World Champ
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    .................RRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT................................

    Perhaps most 2+2 owners/drivers,haven't QUITE worked out,EXACTLY what their car is capable of....

    ...mind you,Ian,you DID say a generalisation....
     
  4. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    They havent.
    Ferrari currently offer the California and the FF, the California sells in similar numbers to the 458. The 612 and 456 sold in quite big numbers too, as did the Mondial.

    M
     
  5. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 World Champ
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    Perhaps because 2+2 doesn't = supercar in the mind of many buyers?

    I don't care what anyone says, but a 911 is always going to be "softer" in my mind than a 458, Gallardo, or 650S.

    The 2+2 Ferrari's might sell ok initially, but they drop like a stone with an anchor attached soon after.

    Of course many years later their value may come back.
     
  6. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 10, 2005
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    This was always what I thought in regards to 2+2 Ferraris. :)
     
  7. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Ferrari 2+2's (I have owned one and enjoyed it a lot) but the obvious difference in resale value is a result of the perceived status and driving experience.

    A 365 like yours cost the same as a BB when new but is a fraction of the price now. You can't argue that the BB just drools "exotic". Same as a Countach / Espada comparison, although the Lambo 2+2's were always a notch up on Ferraris for exotic styling.
     
  8. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    The way I read it, the OP question wasn't about resale value, it was about the demand changing ( reducing) over the past 50 years for new 2+2's.

    My view is that it hasn't changed much, I think that 2+2's would account for close to 1/2 of Ferrari's current production ( California + FF )

    M
     
  9. au-yt

    au-yt F1 Veteran
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    Aug 13, 2006
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    I would challenge that thought only through my personal bias and breif experience.
    The 456 is a much better looking design than the 550 and 575 even the 612.
    As for the handeling I haven't driven a 550/575 but from a big car that will monster a 911 3.2lite carrera up Mcquarie Pass gets huge praise.

    Remember a 456 is as fast as a TR around Fiorano
     
  10. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Having driven Simon's 365 and 330 for near on 5,000 kms I would classify all the "big" Ferrari 2+2s as hugely impressive GT cars with handling and performance characteristics way beyond what most people are use to .... and these are OLD cars !!!

    2+2s are highly practical as Ian says AND I think this is the factor that demeans from the desirability of these cars.

    I fell in love with the 365 and due to it's size and handling it restored my faith in Ferraris in the wet. I had an irrational fear of the rain following my accident near Gympie 11 years ago and even in my 5 series if it rained I would be on edge.

    Then came the opportunity to drive the 365/330 to Melbourne and back, rain/rain/rain/torrential rain .... perfect combination for my fear to ruin the drive, but these 2 cars with the longer wheelbase were eminently stable at "high" speed and the further I drove the more comfortable I felt.

    I had the choice of either a 308GT4 or a 365GT4 when I got into Ferraris and I stupidly took the 308GT4, not that the GT4 is a bad car but I was hedging my bets on expecting the 308 to be a better track/road car versus the 365 .... it is but as I drove the 308 mostly on the road I missed out on the brilliance of the larger V12 2+2.

    So if anyone is considering a 2+2 due to family restrains then I would suggest getting a 365GT4, great sound and practical.

    I didn't like the 330 as much as it felt very much like my old 2300S which while a great car at high speed , was a pig at low speeds (anything below 80mph). The 330 was no pig but it had a LOT of the characteristics of the 2300S which took the shine off it for me.

    The 365 is a highly under-rated family car and drives like a modern sedan with huge performance .... you should get one Rennie :)
     
  11. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    MEOHOS = unpredictable handling at the limit

    FEOHOS = predictable all the time
     
  12. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Fixed
     
  13. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    says the man who, like Moretti, has flipped a MEOHOS :)
     
  14. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    exactly....so I have the experience to know!
     
  15. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I only did it so he wouldn't be alone
     
  16. Horse

    Horse Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Did your dad buy you an F40 the next week to cheer you up?
     
  17. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
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    The doctors wouldn't let me out of hospital to find out :eek:
     
  18. Horse

    Horse Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Fixed. ;)
     
  19. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula 3

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    I've tried to find production figures of the FF vs F12 but it seems Ferrari doesn't release breakdowns of current production numbers.

    Let me put it this way-in the past, the V12 2+2 sold in similar numbers to the 2 seater V-12s. Is that still so? Certainly not in Australia, the USA or Western Europe or is my perception just off kilter? Do the 2+2's sell in similar numbers to the 2 seaters in markets such as China, Russia etc
     
  20. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula 3

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    You know Moretti, I loved the 365/400 shape even as a teenager in the 80's so I would be tempted but CJ tells me stay clear if I don't want to run broke. I think the 365/400 interiors are awesome too.
     
  21. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula 3

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    You know Graeme, until yesterday when I was at the FCA Vic concours, I would've begged to differ on the looks comparison but lately, I'm not so sure. I love the looks of the 550 but for the first time, I thought the looks were a bit..for want of a better word.... contrived. I think 456's look absolutely superb in black.

    Did the 456 sell in similar numbers to the 550 in any production year?
     
  22. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    While I can't see any current production figures either, I would agree that based on my observations sales of the F12 are more than the FF. That may have a lot to do with looks and price of the FF and the availability of an alternative in the form of the V8 2+2 California.

    Comparing the sales proportion in the early 60's it must be remembered that Ferrari's mainstay production model was actually a V12 2+2 ( 250 GTE) and the 2 seat 250 V12's where all limited production or semi race cars.

    Once Ferrari started to offer a V8 2+2 buyers had a (lower cost) alternative to the V12 2+2, something that has probably diluted V12 2+2 sales ever since.

    M
     
  23. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula 3

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    You know Mike, I broadly agree with everything you wrote......and Ferrari need to work on making the 2+2 V-12 desirable again. Maybe its the styling and packaging that needs to be re-thought although I do admire the radical approach they took with the FF, it just doesn't work does it?

    Is it a reflection of the greater affluence and image consciousness of Western economies that now buyers buy a 2 seater AND then buy a SUV or something similar as a practical proposition instead of purchasing a exotic that serves as a comprise between being both sporty and practical? Has the buyer of Italian exotics realised that you can't have your cake and eat it?
     
  24. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula 3

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    If Maserati made a 2 seater, would it outsell the 2+2 models that are currently its mainstay?
     
  25. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    Most people end up forming a view that the car they bought looks better than the one they didn't. :)

    IMO the rear 3/4 view of a 550/575 is wonderful and few 2+2's can solve the packaging problem with usable rear seats, plus centrally mounted fuel tank that modern regulations demand and still look good from that angle.
     

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