Reno Air Race Crash - Page 3

beast · #41 09-17-2011, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saw1998

+2. Unrecoverable.

In the 1998 accident, was the trim tab actually detached from the plane or did the trim mechanism fail?

The 1998 incident happened on "Voodoo" being piloted by Bob Hannah multtime motocross and supercross champion.

Quote:

indeed, pilot Bob Hannah had a wild ride when the elevator trim tab broke off the aircraft and pitched the racer up at approximately 10 G's. Hannah took a G-induced nap but recovered consciousness high over the race course. The flaps had been mis-rigged, and led to undesirable pitch trim forces. At the speeds they were flying at Reno, the tab was sticking way out in the breeze and it had fluttered off.

http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/articles/voodoo99.htm

***Rob Lay*** · #42 09-17-2011, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyIncognito

pic taken just prior to impact (borrowed from a thread on RL). note the pilot's head is not where it should be; medical issue or passed out during the roll prior to crash?

that photo just looks computer generated (simulator?) to me. maybe they just enhanced the photo because it was blurry at that speed and distance. the graphics on the plane are perfectly clear, yet the plane has overall "smooth" look and lack of other detail.

In a dive the G's would pull your head and body back, to one side if uncoordinated.

Simon^2 · #43 09-17-2011, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Lay

that photo just looks computer generated (simulator?) to me. maybe they just enhanced the photo because it was blurry at that speed and distance. the graphics on the plane are perfectly clear, yet the plane has overall "smooth" look and lack of other detail...

I agree but for 2 / 3 add'l reasons...

The prop has no blur... and no exhaust smoke.

Also near perfect profile. What are the odds??? I think it's a photoshop from a ground level photo.

**TheMayor** · #44 09-17-2011, 07:57 AM

I've seen another picture this morning that clearly shows the trim tab coming loose and dangling from the tail. This has to be a major factor. Whether the pilot blanked out from the g forces or not is really a moot issue. The plane was clearly having mechanical problems.

**TestShootCom** · #45 09-17-2011, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon^2

The prop has no blur... and no exhaust smoke.

at 400mph, smoke is unlikely to be very visible, and a high shutter speed freezes the prop. a long lense and a cheapo sensor will cause detail to turn in to a "watercolor" as opposed to a sharp photo. Not arguing it is real, but that it is plausable.

I got bored and dug up the Tsunami NTSB crash reports. link

Simon^2 · #46 09-17-2011, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TestShootCom

at 400mph, smoke is unlikely to be very visible, and a high shutter speed freezes the prop. a long lense and a cheapo sensor will cause detail to turn in to a "watercolor" as opposed to a sharp photo. Not arguing it is real, but that it is plausable.

I got bored and dug up the Tsunami NTSB crash reports. link

In docs post, the photo has smoke and prob blur... and again... the perfect profile...

I'd also be curious if the graphics match those on the plane in Reno. Anyone have a known reno 2011 ramp photo to compare?

Quote:

Originally Posted by docmirror

Trim tab missing on the left. Caused uncommanded rapid pitch up, pilot grayed-out/blacked-out, then uncommanded roll, and impact.

Trim tab prolly came off just prior to the pitch up moment. Similar to an event in 98 with another P-51 that lost a trim tab and went into an abrupt pitch up moment. That guy greyed out and he didn't roll.

Look at the cockput too. The pilot is hunched over, not head up where he should be.

**LightGuy** · #47 09-17-2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdelp

I've seen another picture this morning that clearly shows the trim tab coming loose and dangling from the tail. This has to be a major factor. Whether the pilot blanked out from the g forces or not is really a moot issue. The plane was clearly having mechanical problems.

Thats got to be it.
I mentioned in Silver that I helped install a tab on "Precious Metal" and while not being an expert was told by those that were that the tabs are hyper critical.
If not ballanced perfectly, weight wise and/or aerodynamically, they can tear themselves apart.
Flying without the tab is next to impossible.

docmirror · #48 09-17-2011, 09:52 AM

The photos are from a AP photo-journalist. I have to presume that they are pro grade photos from a serious camera. I"m not a photo expert, but with the right equipment, stopping the prop and this type of detail are certainly possible.

The trim tab coming off would wreak havoc at the speed he was traveling. Trim plays a critical role at all speeds but the faster the more critical as with many things on aircraft. Losing it at speed, in a high G configuration is going to be really, really bad mojo.

I still think after it left the plane, he went hard pitch up, then G-LOC then uncommanded roll and impact. Just no way Jimmy would let his plane get anywhere near spectators if he was still awake. No way - he'd been doing this far too long for that kind of mistake.

Simon^2 · #49 09-17-2011, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docmirror

The photos are from a AP photo-journalist...

The "going in" profile pic is also AP?

Does the AP have a policy of not "cleaning up" photos?

Just curious,... did the same journalist take both? The second photo is obviously sharper...

**TheMayor** · #50 09-17-2011, 10:40 AM

Can we stop with the conspiracy theories just once?

Simon^2 · #51 09-17-2011, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdelp

Can we stop with the conspiracy theories just once?

What conspiracy? Rob asked if the ONE picture was a p-shop, altered, or legit. I pointed out it "looks" different than other incident photo's. It's one photo of a multiple. No conspiracy. We are asking about a single photo.

**saw1998** · #52 09-17-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightGuy

Thats got to be it.
I mentioned in Silver that I helped install a tab on "Precious Metal" and while not being an expert was told by those that were that the tabs are hyper critical.
If not ballanced perfectly, weight wise and/or aerodynamically, they can tear themselves apart.
Flying without the tab is next to impossible.

This is one major reason why I love FChat - the huge knowledge base. I had no idea that these planes had fabric trim tabs. I wonder what the rational is for the use of this material.

I've done quite a bit of acrobatic flying and I couldn't imagine the difficulty of a loss of a control surface; as well as the fact that at >400 kts and 500 AGL things happen literally in a blink of an eye. Such a tragic loss of an amazing pilot and plane.

**TheMayor** · #53 09-17-2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon^2

What conspiracy? Rob asked if the ONE picture was a p-shop, altered, or legit. I pointed out it "looks" different than other incident photo's. It's one photo of a multiple. No conspiracy. We are asking about a single photo.

No, you're asking about the news service "policy" of retouching photos. That's bordering on conspiracy theory stuff.

Maybe I misread you but that's the way it comes across.

**bushwhacker** · #54 09-17-2011, 11:17 AM

What I find perplexing about the profile picture is that it is a profile. In order to get that straight on angle of the aircraft the camera must be at 90 degrees otherwise you would get perspective on the shot while looking up at the aircraft, it looks like there is little or no perspective on the shot? Even at the end of the lens on a long lens you would get some perspective. Or possibly the photographer was shooting multiple frames with a motor drive at a fast shutter speed and captured the aircraft just as it was low enough to the ground at the photographers eye level to create a profile.? It would be interesting to know where the photographer physically was when the shot was taken, top of the grandstands, a tower, a lift?

Simon^2 · #55 09-17-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdelp

No, you're asking about the news service "policy" of retouching photos. That's bordering on conspiracy theory stuff.

Maybe I misread you but that's the way it comes across.

Now I get it. I think you are reading more into it than I intended. I was asking whether cleaning up photo's was tolerable in the news media currently. For example software to remove blur... I was not trying to imply grassy knoll stuff.

**TheMayor** · #56 09-17-2011, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon^2

Now I get it. I think you are reading more into it than I intended. I was asking whether cleaning up photo's was tolerable in the news media currently. For example software to remove blur... I was not trying to imply grassy knoll stuff.

Then, I apologize. I misunderstood what you were saying.

**open roads** · #57 09-17-2011, 12:19 PM

The Galloping Ghost had a radiator that was completely inclosed inside the fuselage and sprayed with a water mist which turned into steam. Those not familiar with this could be startled by seeing steam coming out.

This is a terrible blow to this close community that shares their love of aviation. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.

Simon^2 · #58 09-17-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdelp

Then, I apologize. I misunderstood what you were saying.

No harm.

Thanks.

docmirror · #59 09-17-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon^2

The "going in" profile pic is also AP?

Does the AP have a policy of not "cleaning up" photos?

Just curious,... did the same journalist take both? The second photo is obviously sharper...

Yes.

Don't know, ask AP.

Yes. Maybe the photog was panning better, maybe the camera changed F stop, or exposure, or I don't know.

solofast · #60 09-17-2011, 01:58 PM

Tragic, our prayers are with those who were hurt or lost their lives.