F-22 question | FerrariChat

F-22 question

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by OldSlowpoke, Jun 6, 2014.

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  1. OldSlowpoke

    OldSlowpoke Formula Junior

    Mar 14, 2012
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    In last week's 60 Minutes episode on the F-35, it was asserted that if any of our air superiority fighters came up against the latest Russian fighters, ours would lose. Do those who know the capabilities of theirs and ours think that assessment would also apply to the F-22?
     
  2. kylec

    kylec F1 Rookie
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    Those opinions are based on the belief that the russian's jets are more maneuverable based on 3d thrust vectoring vs the f22's 2d thrust vectoring.
     
  3. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

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    Jets do not fight each other on thrust vectoring and guns anymore...except in limited instances.

    They fight each other on endurance, speed, stealth, electronics, and guided missiles.

    To answer the question - have Russia arm somebody like Syria and let's see what happens.
     
  4. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    #4 MarkPDX, Jun 6, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
    Quantity has a quality all it's own
    -Joseph Stalin

    I haven't looked into the history of this quote very much in order to know if the attribution is correct but there is some real truth to it. What is more applicable in my mind is a short story titled Superiority by Arthur C Clarke which seems to perfectly describe the current state of affairs in the US Air Force. It's well worth reading and I think can be found online for free but a summary is below from Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story)

    Reality is that the F-22s and F-35s probably won't even get a chance to fight the Russians, Chinese or whoever. They will run out of gas trying to get to the battle after they fail to meet the tankers because the computer systems which control everything send everybody to the wrong place at the wrong time because they are all pwned by the Russians and Chinese. This is a scenario put out by Joel Brenner but there are plenty of other ways everything will fall apart when the networks go down.
     
  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bill- There are a lot of people out there who know very little about fighter operations that are always postulating something like what you read. Take all those articles with a huge grain of salt. Many of the show demonstrations of Russian fighters have orange wiring in the flight controls and use pulled circuit breakers in flight control systems to do maneuvers with little applicability in real life engagements.

    Our big problem now is the idiots in Congress and DoD, led by McCain and Gates, who cut off production of our air superiority fighter, the F-22, just when we were getting into economies of scale on production. From over 700 aircraft to less than 200 was just as stupid as doing the same thing to the B-2 from 132 to 22, now 21. The AF bet the bank on 5th generation aircraft and it did not work out, so now we will have an undersized fighter fleet compared to likely future tasking. China and Russia do not have similar problems once a production decision has been made.
     
  6. RacerX_GTO

    RacerX_GTO F1 World Champ
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    #6 RacerX_GTO, Jun 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    There was a story in the couple of years after Iron Curtain fell, post Glasnost, of F-15 Eagles flying in formation with Russian Su-27's over Russian airspace in a friendly tour flight. The lead Eagle, in a playful maneuver, pulled a sudden hard right in an attempt to come back up on the Sukhoi's six, when the Eagle driver looked over his shoulder expecting to see the Sukhoi trailing behind trying to correct the formation, instead, the Eagle driver saw the Sukhoi right there, tight in formation with him. So what does that mean? It means nothing. It wasn't combat.

    A few years later, the Pentagon buys two Sukhoi's from Ukraine to study them. More than likely, they went to the 413th FTG. Pravda paints the picture;
    USA Buys Russia?s Su-27 Jets From Ukraine to Find Out Why F-15 Is So Bad - English pravda.ru

    Then the scuttle gets churned in the aviation forums, "Hey, maybe America's fighters aren't all they're cracked up to be", piling on the scuttle, 60 Minutes.

    This is a new era, if you're talking Su-37 vs. America's latest and greatest, I really don't think it matters....
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  7. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    From what I've seen and read, the F22 is in a class of its own. Until the T50 is available, and no one knows its capability, there isn't any plane capable of combat. Reports I've read that against F15s the kill rate was 7 to 0. The F15 drivers never saw the F22 and the F22 killed all of them. Now technology changes, but for now no contest.

    Art
     
  8. OldSlowpoke

    OldSlowpoke Formula Junior

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    Thank you all for your insights. I am in heartfelt agreement with what Taz says about the foolishness of canceling the F-22 program. I do not think a conventional war can be won without air superiority--a belief I have held ever since watching Walter Cronkite's "Air Power" series decades ago. In fact, I earned a B.S.E. In aerospace engineering because I wanted to design fighter jets. But while working as an engineer in the Air Force, I became more interested in energy issues and went into nuclear engineering.

    I am aware of the immunity of the F-22 to the F-15. But the F-15 is not the F-22's competition.

    I hopes the F-35 delivers on its promises.
     
  9. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    Until the T50 is in service, the F22 has no match. However, I disagree about the wisdom of its cancellation. It's an advanced air superiority plane, 5th generation. Against everyone but India, China, or Russia the F15 works just fine. The T50 is 5 - 7 years from being operational. The Chinese plane is not expected until the mid 20s.

    The X47 is a proof of concept plane that will obsolete all of them, and can be in service by 25.

    I look at the decision to stop F22 production as the same as with the B1. New technology changes the game. (The F117 came into action obsoleting the B1)

    Art
     
  10. Nurburgringer

    Nurburgringer F1 World Champ

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    #10 Nurburgringer, Jun 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Maybe sooner. Accd to this first deliveries will be in 2016
    Russian air forces started the state testing of T-50 fighter - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

    You gotta hand it to the Russians, they build one hell of a nice looking fighter. The Su-29 is gorgeous and the T-50 is quite a bit sleeker than the F-22 let alone the fugly F-35.
    F-15's, F-14's and F-18's are kinda hot in their own way but we haven't had a truly great looking fighter since the F-16 IMO.
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  11. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Kurt- A quick glance at those photos show all kinds of radar reflectors built into the design. She will be nowhere near as stealthy as an F-22 or an F-35.
     
  12. Boomhauer

    Boomhauer Formula Junior

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    This is because the Russians never intended for the PAK-FA to be a full stealth aircraft like the F-22, different doctrines, the plane is still in test and the way it looks could change when it's fully operational.
     
  13. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    From what I've read, they didn't deal with the rear of the plane as well, but I'm not sure that makes a difference, since a lot of engagements are frontal. They also didn't do much about the heat signature. However, they are going to be cheaper than the F22.

    The Chinese gen 5 hasn't even got the motor finalized.

    However volume may even things up.

    Art
     
  14. RacerX_GTO

    RacerX_GTO F1 World Champ
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    The T-50 is more of a low level stealth(if you can call it that) attack bird. As mentioned above, bulky jet nozzles, canopy, unstealthy AOA hardware at the tip of the nose, the T-50 is dead meat to the high resolutions of Raytheon radar. Then there's the question of if it even has any RAM that is worth anything.

    The Rooskies always approach things from a practical standpoint. It shows.
     
  15. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

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    Remember how awful our Sherman tanks were, and how great were the Panzers and especially Tigers? But we had a zillion of our Shermans.
     
  16. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    #16 2000YELLOW360, Jun 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
    Google S500. All you need to know.

    Take a look at this:

    http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html

    Comparison of the F22 and T50:

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230210-1.html

    They think the T50 might have an advantage.

    Art
     
  17. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

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    Oh great. So you're saying we have inferior aircraft and lower numbers? Not good.
     
  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Art- Those are not really very believable sources, sorry.
     
  19. Boomhauer

    Boomhauer Formula Junior

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    #19 Boomhauer, Jun 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014

    What Raytheon radars ? The same could be said about the Nebo radars around Russian + a mix of ''hundreds'' of different versions of the S-300, S-350, S-400 and S-500, Pantsir S1 + MIG-31s etc... could make the life of F-22 or any F-35 really hard.

    Also the engines on the T-50 are just temporary, they are the same ones used on the su-35 but a new one is already being designed.
     
  20. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    What do you recommend for sources?

    Other than the age, looked fairly technical to me.

    Art
     
  21. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    Well put.

    We saw what happened when the Germans fielded a technically far superior aircraft near the end of WWII. Although the ME 262 was far superior to anything that we had, it was fielded in far too few numbers to make any kind of difference in the outcome of the war.

    Similarily, with only 200 F-22's, even though they are superior to anything that comes at them, they will surely be overwhelmed by the quantity of aircraft that the Chinese would be able to put up against them.

    As history has repeated over and over again, when you are strong you don't have to worry about being attacked, since nobody will try. When you are weak, you WILL be attacked, it happens without fail. The recent aggressive actions by China clearly show that they believe that they are getting strong enough to start throwing their weight around.
     
  22. johnhunt

    johnhunt Formula Junior

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    The f22 has no comparison. It brings a huge force multiplying effect to the battlefield. In maneuvers it was scoring something like 150 to 1 kill ratios when used in large scale battles with f15 and f16s hanging in a safe place as missile platforms.

    I've never been able to confirm it but I suspect that thrust vectoring nozzle is for ultra high altitude maneuvers. Since at high altitude a b52 can out turn fighters this nozzle design might change that.

    From an f22 pilot...
    After takeoff (going straight up) I had to slow down or the plane was going supersonic

    Hit 70000 feet and had to bank over to not exceed the exercise ceiling







    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Art- It is largely a hobby magazine for aerobuffs. Aviation Week tends to have articles done by folks with access to better information sources.

    The really good sources are official publications (Weapons Review published by the USAF Weapons School at Nellis AFB, unclassified and classified editions, formerly Fighter Weapons Review)
     
  24. WilyB

    WilyB F1 Rookie
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    What’s worrisome for the F-22 and 35 is the massive Russian investment in modern VHF and L-band radars. F-22 was optimized for S to Ku. AFAIK their ‘stealth’ comes mostly from proper shaping and perfect surface conductivity with zero gaps or anything that could constitute an antenna.

    When shape is not sufficient, they use RAM. Problem with RAM is the lower you go in frequency, the heavier and thicker they get, usually.

    Some newer metamaterial kind of solve the problem though but the RAM used for the F-22 was selected almost 20 years ago.
     
  25. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

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    Terry:

    Are these available on line? If so, can you post a link?

    Art
     

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