Anyone here flown in Betty Jane- Collins P51?

I have given a lot of rides in the P-51.
My thoughts.
An hour is a long time, usually 30 minutes is a lot of time in something as fast as a Mustang. Make sure she is ready for a P-51 I tell people it will max out all of your senses at the same time. It vibrates, extremely loud, smells like oil, fuel and exhaust, and it is fast, so it really is a lot at the same time.

I always suggest a T-6 first or a Stearman.
Maybe lower the ride to a half hour and use the extra money to get a ride in one of the trainers first.

If you do decide on the P-51 she will definitely like it.

 

I agree with F4UDriver. Years ago I had a flight in his airplane," Worry Bird" when it was in the stable of another owner. You are correct when you say that it is a lot for someone to take in for the first time. The power coupled with the noise and vibrations is an overwhelming jolt. You quickly realize that the the guy up front better know what he is doing or things could go from bad to worse in less then a second and I have ridden and flown a few WW2 trainers and things like B-24's and B-17's. The P-51 is not scary but alarming. The thing that got to me was the immediate response to throttle changes in the air and the exhaust heat that smothered you when the canopy was opened. It is a once in a life time thrill and shows you what we used in WW2 in the hands of 19 year olds.

 

I second the idea of tacking the bomber ride on. I rode in their B-25 a few years back, and it still is a memorable moment.

 

What kind of P-51 is that in the pictures?

A trainer version of the P-51B?

Oh, never mind - I looked back at the post: TP-P1C.

 

Toss up between the B-24 and the B-17, both are valuable artifacts and and a flight in either one would be a chance to experience something that doesn't come along very often and these airplanes are getting scarce. Picture yourself in a formation of several hundred of them on the way to the target. But you won't be getting shot at while you're freezing since you will be at 1/6th the altitude. A figure came to mind, 44,000 men were lost in the 8th Air Force alone in 3 1/2 years of action, 2,431 in one week in Feb. 1944 and that wasn't the worst. I would be surprised if your young lady will be allowed to fly the airplane. Controls are heavy and response is slow.

 

I flew it. I rolled it a few times and did an inside loop. Forward vision from the rear seat is not good,and my legs got in the way of much stick movement. The A/B/C models were never intended for a rear seat,much less dual controls. But go for it. And if a D,K,or H model becomes available to you,go for that. A P-51 is a unique emotional experience.

 

I have been on the B-17 flight and while it was interesting it wasn't all that exciting. Everybody cycles around to various crew positions in the plane and takes some pics but really it's like having somebody give you a parade lap in an F1 car. You can say you rode in the thing but it's not really anything close to a "full" experience.

 

wow, you must have a much higher emotional threshold than I. The 30 minute ride I had in Aluminum Overcast at Oshkosh will stay with me for the rest of my life. Goosebumps from engine start to engine shutdown.
Although it was at maybe 2000' instead of 25k+ and the plane was full of casually dressed civilians I was unable to NOT imagine we were cruising over German countryside instead of Wisconsin while crouched over the Norden bomb sight, scanning the skies for Fritz while in the waist gun posts, threading my way past live bombs on a narrow catwalk, and most of all sitting in the sling seats for a landing how thousands of young WWII airmen did with dead or dying crewmates who'd never see the US again....
Practically speaking I don't know how it could have been more of a "full" experience.
What do you suggest?

 

Well, you've made a living in loud prop-driven big flying boxes, so you're perspective is very different than the average joe. Most civilians never experience anything similar. I rode around in the B-25 thinking about how kids flew those things for hours in freezing temps while expecting to die, and it made an impression on me.

 

Yeah... I suppose my perspective is a bit different.

 

I'm with Kurt on this. I paid the extra $ and got some left seat time in the Collins -17 (not sure if they do that anymore, this was in mid 90's time frame). That was really cool, but the thing that will always stick in my mind is the take-off and hearing those four radials wind up. That is a sound, and feeling, that I will never forget.

 

How'd you swing that?!?! Friends with the pilot or did you pay extra?

Awesome!

oh yeah.... I was sitting in the radio operator's seat for take-off where you can look out the windows directly at both wings as those big props start chugging around just a few feet away.... then as the revs rise and the vibrations through the entire airframe and up the seat smooth out as the noise increases.... man oh man.

My brother and I bought our dad a flight in the B-24 about 5 years ago but it turned out to be having maintenance done that weekend so he also went up in a B-17, 9-o-9 I believe. This was before his knee replacement so he couldn't go up front past the bomb racks but also came away deeply moved by the flight.

Jim - What were your take-aways from the time behind the wheel?
Having a go at the controls would be the icing on the cake... good for you!

 

One of my friends from McLaren did the B-17 ride earlier this year and said it was an unbelievable experience. (this from a guy who track tests P1's for a living must be good fun)

Its on my bucket list to do the Mustang ride..

 

Just being in the cockpit was cool. A lot of management by the co-pilot to get the engine/props all sycn'd. Most interesting observation was the amount of rudder to straighten out from a turn. Plane rolled into a turn nicely with fairly light control forces. Getting out was another thing entirely. Took a lot of rudder and the rudder forces are NOT light. Commented to the aircraft commander what a b**** it must be with an engine out. Even with rudder trim it required a massive amount of pilot input. Imagine having to fly for hrs (returning from combat over Germany) holding rudder.

 

Forgive me the dumb question but if you were in a left bank/turn would you need left or right rudder to "get out"? I'd think that left rudder would impart a force to roll the plane to the right i.e. "out", but wouldn't you typically be already using at least a bit of left rudder in a left turn?

With my RC planes I don't use much if any rudder in any typical turns, but it's not always easy to see if they're well coordinated from the ground.

 

Rudder is used in conjunction with the ailerons to initiate turns, either rolling into or out of. Required to counteract adverse yaw from the deflected ailerons. Controls (rudder and aileron) are neutral once established in the turn. Rudder is required to counteract adverse yaw from the deflected ailerons. Use same rudder as direction of the turn or roll (except when inverted).

 

thanks, that I get i.e. right rudder with right aileron to initiate turn and counteract adverse yaw. So when you were "getting out" out of that turn in the B-17 i.e. left aileron to roll back to level flight, it required much more left rudder, as compared to the right rudder to initiate the turn?

 

yes, much more, just don't ask me why

 

No extra charge. I asked when calling for an appointment. They said ok since the pilot knew aerobatics.

Collins' prices may seem high,but it is very expensive to keep those old planes flying. I recall talking to someone who worked on their planes. He said that about four hours of maintenance are needed for each hour of flying time (averaged across their fleet).

 

The Collins Foundation has a F4D Phantom,how about a ride in that ?!

Edward

 

The Ruskies will sell you a ride in anything that is airworthy....and some that aren't.

 

These old airplanes were " rudder airplanes" like many that preceded them. The ailerons were of archaic design and required corrective controls. I was able to fly a 1933 Boeing 247 and couldn't believe the built in stability. Once the airplane was set up in a stabile position it didn't want to change and tended to stay there. Turns required a lot of rudder and a lot of aileron with it. Rudder first. Response was slow even after healthy inputs. Boeing bombers were built to be stabile bombing platforms and once they were set up and trimmed, they stayed there. The B-29 was the same way and took a lot of urging to change . I flew in B-24's and knew several B-24 pilots and they said that an engine out sometimes required the feet and legs of both the pilot and copilot to stand on the rudder pedal. At max altitude the B-24 was touchy and required a delicate touch. The airplanes that are now being flown for rides are near empty weight instead of loaded to near 65,000 lbs with guns, armor, crew, bombs, max fuel, and ammo. Easy stuff.