A question abt flight engineers

I'm not the most experienced guy to answer you but my first thought goes to most of the 4 engined recipe's where the engines required constant baby sitting and monitoring to keep everybody holding hands and going in the same direction. Cylinder head temp, mixture, cowl flaps, props, ignition analyzer (R4360), E/C generation and balance, fuel flow, RPM synchronization, fuel pressure, hydraulic pressure, fuel tank balance, fuel consumption readings, are just a few things off the top of my head. Having a flight in FiFi on a hot day and watching the flight engineer trying to keep the engines cool and the rest of everything hung together was interesting and one could see why the pucker string is always pulled so tight. They could easily be called Fright Engineers. Early jets had FE's until so much stuff was automated and displayed sans steam gages. I'm certain that others will chime in with better explanations.

 

on the 727 the engineer had to manually parallel the engine generators and manage load shedding when a generator/engine failed. He/she had to manage emergency power when all generators failed. The air conditioning and pressurization packs could overheat and had to be constantly adjusted. Hydraulic pumps had to be monitored and special handling was required with failures. In an emergency the Captain and Engineer would work together on sometimes long and complicated checklists leaving the Copilot to fly the airplane. There was also fuel management, pressurization, cabin temp and other system monitoring.

The first gen 737 automated many of these systems for a two man crew but was labor intensive compared to a modern airplane.

The 777 automates almost everything (system wise) leaving human intervention for when a system fails. When this happens (rare) an electronic checklist pops up and walks the pilots through the procedure and recognizes the moving of switches so a pilot doesn't accidentally move the wrong one. Realistically a 777 could be flown single pilot but there is a huge safety factor in having two minds and splitting duties between flying the airplane and managing/monitoring.


Oddly, some modern GPS instrument approaches have become much more complicated and labor intensive then in the old analog days of following a needle. This is due to developing new technology into existing airplanes.

Some will ask, if computers know what to do, why have a human do anything at all. Some day this will come but right now computers can't see the big picture and glitches happen. All critical controlls and switches like flaps, landing gear, engine controlls, fuel pumps, hydraulic pumps etc require human figures to operate. Weather avoidance and visual approaches to shorter runways can not yet be automated due to constantly changing factors.

We are now getting closer to air traffic controllers operating the airplane path and altitude with pilots just accepting their inputs. Next the controllers will be automated.

Dave

 

The C-130H is one of the last fixed wing aircraft in widespread use in the western world with a flight engineer and though I'm not an FE I can probably speak a bit to the role. The FE is responsible for managing a wide variety of aircraft systems like engines, electrical, fuel and hydraulic systems. The FE is responsible for running a wide variety of challenge/response checklists and backs up the pilots on a variety of checklist items such as landing gear and flap position. That is a very simplistic explanation... Feel free to ask more. On the road a good FE can make a real difference if there are problems with the aircraft. One memory stands out..... I was on an engine stand shoulder deep in the guts of a C-130 engine at a remote field in Iraq because I was the one with long enough arms to reach the bolts. The pilots were standing behind me with flashlights and the engineer was talking me through removal of a generator that had failed. The ability of an experienced engineer to talk me through that process was difference between getting home and being stuck at a field in a rather hostile area. Another time we were flying across the Atlantic and had trouble with engines... More specifically three of the four developed oil pressure issues and a good engineer managed the situation so we could keep them all running until we could make it into St Johns NFLD. The FE career field is not one that enlisted personnel can unusually just go into, a typical FE spent several years as a crew chief or other maintenance related field and distinguished themselves as an exceptional performer.

On the newer C-130J model the computers manage systems and mission execution aspects which allow two pilots to fly the same mission without a FE or Navigator. Whether the computer can truly replace these crew positions is a matter of some debate and pilots who cross from E/H models to the J typically miss the backup when flying. AFSOC still utilizes navigators / electronic warfare officers for some missions but systems automation has pretty well replaced the FE.

Having spent some time as a crew dog on 130s it's a hell of a good time going on the road with a five person crew. The Nav usually is busy keeping the copilot out of jail, the FE keeps the up young loadmasters from falling in love at the strip club while the aircraft commander is just hoping nobody ends up in jail.

 

The Flight Engineer did all the "work" involved to keep the airplane running. He did the preflight. Away from home base he fueled the aircraft. At my operation (and most others) the FE was required to be an A&P mechanic because, if we had a flat tire at an out station he would have to change it. On the old Connies if we blew a jug (a not too uncommon occurance) the FE would change it-possibly with the help of the co-pilot or local helpers.
On the aircraft the FE would set power-uually. As a pilot be careful about calling for "takeoff power" does that mean "I need full power" or "reduce power-as in take some power off". On the Connies and some other recipes the FE had his own set of power levers. The FE also managed the fuel load.He would always announce "changing tanks" or "transferring fuel" when he started such an operation-an operation that was necessary on any long distance flight. Electrical loads had to be managed. The Cl-44 had six generators. The FE was in charge of all of them. The FE controlled the de ice-anti ice systems. If ice was dectected on the aircraft, one of the pilots would politely ask (holler back) for wing heat, or prop&cowl deice. This command was usually followed by much shifting of levers and flipping of switches, usually followed by the FE getting out of his seat to "have a look" out the window to see the ice.
Engine failure? Ask the FE to "Feather #3 (or whichever) and hope you don't have to follow that up with a "blow the fire bottle," but if you do, it's the FEs fire bottle-if he can beat the pilot to the switch.
To "turn on" the old airplanes, consists of manipulating about 30 or more circuit breakers-the FEs job. Engine starting is a three man process (plus a ground crew) with the FH handling the engine levers (co-pilot usually works the starter switch). The FE also "turns off" the airplane-a very involved process in itself consisting depressurizing the cabin shutting down six generators, three hydraulic pumps, any heat or a/c which may be running, getting ground power on line, shutting down the engines and start pulling all those breakers.
The 727 was the last "modern" airliner to use an FE and most of those were not A&Ps. Modern aircraft have automated most of the jobs that an FE did. Electrical and fuel systems are simpler as are pressurization and deice. Much of the ground work that an FE did is now handled by better equipped ground stations. The work load in a 2 pilot aircraft is somewhat higher, and it sure was great to have an extra hand in the cockpit, but those days are gone.

 

They used to say that the FO's main job in the 727 was "bird strike protection" for the engineer.

 

Lol, and all this time I thought the FO was there to turn on the pitot heat.

 

In later days, flight engineers actually went through test pilot school and were responsible for gathering test data on DT&E flights of everything from fighters to transport aircraft as flight test engineers. Many of them flew on the Shuttle as mission specialists.

 

I spent 4.5 years on the 727 panel. Great jet and I'm proud to be part of its legacy but the FE training was the most difficult I've encountered in close to 20 years of flying. At my company, it was borderline hazing and a real right of passage as a new hire. Glad to have a window seat now on 757/767s!

 

Don't forget about the first 5 767-200s delivered with a FE station:

Ansett's 767-277s With 3-Man Flt Crew — Tech Ops Forum | Airliners.net

 

Imagine being the flight engineer on a B36.
NMUSAF - B-36J Engineer

 

Imagine being the one on the Howard Hughes H-1 Flying Boat...(if indeed he had one, which I assume he must have).

 

I'll bet that some of those behemoth airplanes had more than one FE. Many of the larger prop jobs had wings so thick that you could go inside them in flight and work on the engines!

 

Like the Douglas B-19, and Boeing 314. I have always wondered what the heck you would do behind a running engine.

 

Wipe up the spilled oil - (before it caught on fire)?

 

"check essential!"

 

Very true! I was an FE on the three holer and 747-200. When I had finished training it felt like I could have built the airplane! One of the worst part of being an FE on the "classic whale" is running the fuel heaters. I'm not really rembering the exact specifics now but basically on long flights when the fuel got really cold that's all you would do for hours is cycle the fuel heat for each engine.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot that they were Curtis-Wrights.

 

USAF Helicopters have always had flight engineers, and still do. On Pave Hawks, the powertrain is automated, so the FE does not do much engine management. The FE manages the cabin and PAX, runs the hoist, and mans a gun (along with the gunner). FEs still do pre-flights, post-flights, and ground refueling.

 

All my FE's only made coffee, then fell asleep

 

At the top of the descent when it was time to reduce power and start down, I would pull the power off as slowly as possible-trying to keep the from waking up the PFE-without fail I couldn't fool them.

 

KC-10's and C-5's still use them. Usually the reason behind not needing an FE any longer is everything now is controlled or monitored by computer.

Jim

 

Delta's first 767 ship 101, was originally built as a 3 man cockpit aircraft. Before it was delivered it was converted to a 2 man cockpit. The conversion delayed delivery making ship 102 the first delivered to the airline and it became the employee purchased "Spirit of Delta"

 

Sitting through C-5 systems CBT's this week made me glad that Fred still has an FE.