Squall Line | FerrariChat

Squall Line

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by LouB747, May 17, 2015.

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  1. LouB747

    LouB747 Formula 3

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    #1 LouB747, May 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    My Mother in Law is here visiting from Kansas City. I was checking the weather and saw one of the longest squall lines I've seen in awhile.
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  2. Bob Parks

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    I was flying back to Seattle from Philadelphia in a 707-320 when we encountered a storm line over the rockies, the height of which exceeded our altitude that was something over 30,000ft. The pilot flew along the line looking for a low spot but couldn't find one. He flew south for a pretty long time and finally made a turn to the west and squeaked through. I spotted a field full of airplanes and I thought of Kingman , Arizona but I was never able to verify it. Our flight was 1.5 hours late getting into Seattle. I remember the front being much higher than we were and pretty active below us.
     
  3. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

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    I did the east coast / west coast 4 times last weak. That band fizzled out around the mid thirties. Not an issue for anything with horsepower.

    The first time I actually read the high sig chart. Used Myradar.com and confirmed via Flir we were over the fun after that. I hate thunderstorms.......first world problems i know.
     
  4. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I was once flying from Denver to La Guardia in a 767 when we encountered such a line over New Jersey. The captain found the path of least resistance, but still we did the "bump & grind" for about 8 minutes. Most of the people on board were quite nervous but the 15-year-old high-school wrestler sitting next to me seemed totally unperturbed. And all you could see outside was the inside of a cloud.

    Having worked on the structural design of the airplane, I was hoping that we all did a good job! The excitement wasn't over, since LGA was pretty socked in and the first thing I could see outside was the water of the East River, less than 10 seconds before touchdown! I was still a bit surprised to hear much applause in the cabin as we decelerated down the runway.
     
  5. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    I flew to Dallas that day. Flew right over that thing. No big deal.
     
  6. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    what altitude?
     
  7. Face76

    Face76 F1 World Champ
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    I drove through that thing from Dallas to Kansas City with a short layover in Picher, OK for some creepy picture taking. Lots of cool cloud formations from a driver's view. Also, lots of lightening as we got closer to Kansas City.
     
  8. Bob Parks

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    I believe that the average flying passenger doesn't know how well built the modern jet transports are and how much the airframes can tolerate. Fear and apprehension turns many knuckles white while someone with air miles and airframe knowledge quietly sits and rides it out.
     
  9. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    The funny thing, Bob is that I was the one with "air miles and airframe knowledge" and my knuckles were looking pretty white, while this kid who probably had very few air miles seemed totally nonplussed. I suppose that at his young age, he felt indestructible.....
     
  10. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    FL260
     
  11. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    More likely, he had no idea what was going on. Young, dumb(ignorant of what was happening), and happy. Now, in my case, I'm old, dumb, and happy. Several years ago we took the jet boat trip to Victoria, Can. and the sea was extremely rough with waves coming over the bow. The skipper didn't slow down much, so it was a hard bouncy ride. Earlier we had been annoyed by a noisy bunch of tourists but as soon as the ups and downs and hard impacts began and they quieted down and soon started to pass the barf bags around. Since we had to get up really early to get to the boat, I was tired and I took a long nap while everybody was revisiting their breakfasts. I got some stern looks and some very pointed comments as we were getting off the boat. Not my fault if it wasn't bothering me.
     
  12. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    The part of the aircraft that I most worry about is the vertical tail. After all, you have two wings and two horizontals, but only one vertical, and if you lose that you're in deep doodoo.

    Consider the BOAC 707 that crashed on Mt. Fuji in the mid-60s. That began when a tornadic wind gust off the mountain snapped off the vertical tail. Then there is the American A300 that crashed in Queens, NY, apparently after excessive rudder inputs by the first officer caused the vertical stab to fail.
     
  13. Bob Parks

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    Jim, that vertical tail is mounted in the worst possible manner. A bolt flange spread out at the base that ties into another series of fasteners that spreads out into more surface structure instead of transmitting the loads deep down into the 48 section. Look at the 767 where the cords of the vertical spars are tied deeply into heavy bulkheads. All Boeing airplanes are done this way and the verticals are very stout. The 727 vertical fin front and rear spars were huge aluminum forgings that went clear to the keel line because the center intake duct poked a hole in them. On top of that there was a heavy and live horizontal tail mounted on top. The B-52 had a fin failure but it was a fin failure due to high speed turbulence and directional control was maintained with differential thrust and outboard spoilers. The only other fin failure was on a KC-135 because of the lack of a sheer web in the initial design of the upper part of the front spar. From a political argument in engineering.
    Forgive me for spouting off but I saw a lot of this in the early 50's and 60's.
     
  14. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Bob, there's a famous pic of the B-52 that you mention, flying halfway across the country with no vertical stabilizer whatsoever. Think it's in Wikipedia if you search "B-52".

    They dropped the rear landing gear for some stability also as I recall.


    Airbus vertical stabs seem to be not as robust.
     
  15. Bob Parks

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    I got to thinking about the 707 that crashed in the Skagit River bed after being snap rolled twice and throwing off three of the four engines. Through all of that and crashing onto rocks, the fin was intact on the 46 and 48 sections that were left.
     
  16. zygomatic

    zygomatic F1 Rookie
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    #16 zygomatic, May 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Photo evidence of Bob's B-52 memories
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  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Reminds me of a story about Neil Armstrong in his later years. On a flight to or from an event in DC the flight got into a terrible storm, barf bags out, a few screams, stuff crashing about etc. Guy travelling with Armstrong said he never even looked up from his Sudoku puzzle.
     
  18. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    On the other hand, Scott Crossfield, a famous test pilot (who flew the X-1 with Yeager) died in his Cessna 210 while penetrating a thunderstorm. So it's definitely possible to be too blase about this stuff.

     
  19. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    When radar began to appear in airliners, a couple of planes crashed because the pilots were using the radar to try and fly through thunderstorms instead of using the radar to avoid them, which was really why it was put there in the first place.

    There was a Braniff Electra crash in Texas in 1968 where the official cause was the pilots attempting to use radar to fly through a storm. When they realized their mistake they tried to turn around, got caught in severe turbulence, and lost a wing.

    But a group discounts that story and claims that the aircraft was a victim of illegal cargo, much like the ValuJet DC-9 crash in the Everglades. I wonder if the real cause will ever really be known.
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I didn't know he died that way.

    Hmm, wonder what Yeager said about it?
     
  21. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    As you well know....

    The 767 is a tank. Not indestructible but plenty tough as evidenced by the this water landing in the Comoro Islands.
    The reason the airplane broke up was because it landed on a reef, catching the engines and spinning it around.
    Notice the vertical and horizontal tail stayed together through the rotation.
    At 00:24 you can see the vertical fin still attached.

    Having cut my teeth on one 25 years ago, I'll fly one any day.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE2Yn0cipTY
     
  22. Bob Parks

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    Good stuff, Spasso, and shows what we have been talking about. I think back to 1942-43 when B-17's took 20mm cannon fire in the tail and, with 4 foot diameter holes in the fin, kept right on going. I recently viewed a photo of a B-17 that was involved in a midair collision and the fin was bent backwards with a gaping opening between the vertical fin and the dorsal fin. The photo was taken on the ground after the airplane had flown back from a mission over Germany.
     
  23. zygomatic

    zygomatic F1 Rookie
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    There's a passage in Yeager's book about it. The gist: "You can't take flying lightly, no matter what you're flying or when."
     
  24. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I have flown with several pilots who had become inured to the dangers of pushing the envelope because they had escaped disaster so many times. The Boeing test pilots that I knew were very disciplined about flying anything from the lowly Grasshopper to the Big Tin Birds. I flew formation with Lew Wallick in a PT -19 and he was tucked in tight but his eyes were locked on and never wavered.
     
  25. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Sounds like confirmation of the old saying "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots!"
     

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