FAA Warns of Mysterious, Planned GPS Outage in the Desert | FerrariChat

FAA Warns of Mysterious, Planned GPS Outage in the Desert

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by NYC Fred, Jun 8, 2016.

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  1. NYC Fred

    NYC Fred F1 Veteran
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    FAA Warns of Mysterious, Planned GPS Outage in the Desert

    <<Starting today and continuing intermittently until the 30th of June, the Navy is doing something that will knock out GPS signals in the Mojave Desert. They won't say what that something is, though.

    The FAA has issued a warning to all "aircraft that rely on GPS," (your bi-plane is fine) that once someone gets around 40,000 feet in the air on the 7th, 9th, 21st, 23rd, 28th, and 30th of June, between 9:30am and 3:30pm, their GPS will not work.>>

    It's the space aliens, I tell you.
     
  2. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I'd like to understand what's going on there!

    Only over 40Kft? Odd. Only on specific days? Odd.

    I'm certainly no expert, but my (albeit limited) understanding of how the system works suggests that's just not possible. Unless they're playing war games - the navy does 'own' the system after all, so I guess they can shut it down if they want to?

    Hmmmm.... I can feel another Googling black hole coming on. ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  3. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

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    More than likely testing out a GPS jammer pod on an F/A-18 Growler that jams GPS except for the encrypted military signal.
     
  4. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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  5. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    Likely just testing some variety of jamming equipment out at China Lake. It may not even be targeted at GPS systems but they might just be a collateral effect. I have experienced it first hand on a variety of other ranges when they were testing other equipment. Nothing particularly sinister about a very weak signal from space being swamped by some ground based transmitter.
     
  6. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Does anyone think that this will affect airline operations?
     
  7. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Times are very early in the morning for about 6 hours. Airliners and everything with an integrated INS/GPS system have Kalman filters that will discard bad GPS information during this period. We flew for nearly 100 years without GPS, and except for the dubious example of the aircraft using GPS for stability augmentation, should not be much of an issue for airliners. Independent GPS systems will just not provide information. Between the INS and VOR/VORTAC stations, everything should be fine.
     
  8. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Umm, no. It's 9:30am to 3:30pm pacific time. At least on the west coast, that's the middle of the day.

    I don't know what a "Kalman filter" is, but most domestic US airliners (certainly all of the regional guys) don't have INS.

    Looking at the affected area, I would guess it might make a difference to the airlines, but not a huge one. It will put the RNAV arrivals out of business to Las Vegas, LA area, San Francisco, and Phoenix (from the west, anyway). That might reduce capacity a bit, but it shouldn't be too bad.

    Of course, if there are any delays, for whatever reason, expect the airlines to blame it on this.

     
  9. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Don- Yup, I went the wrong way on the 8 hours. Of course airliners have INS systems. Just checking, the large Boeing airliners use INS and update it with GPS. Most nav systems are INS/GPS/air data and Kalman filtered. Boeing fitted INS systems to the 747s long before GPS became widely used. Integrated INS/GPS systems with ring laser gyros are nowhere near as expensive as those older mechanical gyro INS systems were.
     
  10. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Veteran
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    I'd be just shocked silly if airline dudes can't fly around without GPS...are you fn kidding me? Have things really gotten that dumbed down?
     
  11. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    How high do you need to be for celestial navigation? ;)
     
  12. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    How many 747s do you see flying domestic routes in the US?

    The Boeings might, but I'm pretty sure the CRJs and ERJs don't have INS. I'd be a little bit surprised if the short range 737s and Airbusses have it either, but it could be.

    I was just looking at some of the LAX RNAV arrivals (there is only one, I see) and departures. They do allow INS if it's combined with a DME/DME RNAV system. Either one on it's own is not sufficient, however.

     
  13. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    They can fly, the question would be if they can do the RNAV arrivals or not, and what effect that has on the airspace capacity.

     
  14. RWP137

    RWP137 Formula 3

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    RJ's are not equipped with INS. We'd have to use conventional NAV (VOR to VOR) and not accept any RNAV arrivals or approaches. It's not a big deal, just a pain.
     
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I know the old DC-9 derivatives, MD-xx did not have INS either when new, but INS/GPS integrated systems are so cheap now, I would be surprised if the newer narrow bodies did not have them. Will have to look. 777s have an integrated system, for sure.
     
  16. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The airplanes with INS are those used for overwater flying.

    For short haul, domestic stuff, it's not worth the money, especially with GPS so cheap. And if airline managements have one thing in common, it's that they hate to spend money.

     
  17. NYC Fred

    NYC Fred F1 Veteran
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  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 tazandjan, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Fred- Worked for me in the T-29, but not too much use in an F-111. Bet they have computers to do the precomps now, though. We had to do it all by hand using celestial tables back then.

    Night celestial can lead to some funny incidents, though. Watched one nav student take a cel shot on the T-29's wingtip light. Made for very steady tracking with the sextant.

    Don- Here is the Dual IRS (inertial reference system) Panel and Position Reference Panel from a 737.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Looks pretty old! Is that from a -200?

    I'm sure some 737s (maybe all of them) have INS-- they need it for ETOPS, to go to Hawaii. Knowing someone like SWA, they probably standardized all their airplanes.

    However, plenty of airliners don't.

    Incidentally, the FAA advises Embraer Phenom 300 (not an airliner, but a current production business jet) not to even fly in the area! Now that is absurd.

     
  20. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

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    Is the clue to what they are doing in the advisory title?

    "CHLK 16-08 GPS Interference Testing"

    Testing systems to stop the North Koreans using US GPS to guide their WangDong missiles? :)
     

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