Looping a B-1 Bomber! | FerrariChat

Looping a B-1 Bomber!

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Jacob Potts, Jun 24, 2016.

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  1. Jacob Potts

    Jacob Potts Formula Junior

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  2. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Loops????

    Rolls?
     
  3. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Veteran
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    I watched all that looking for a loop (which would have really been cool)... Those are barrel rolls and I'm pretty sure a 747 could do one... But still neat to see.
     
  4. Ryan S.

    Ryan S. Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Love that plane!
     
  5. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    I wouldn't doubt it has been done but nobody's talking...
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    No over the top in the B-1B, loop or split S. Too much altitude loss.
     
  7. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Veteran
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    #7 Hannibal308, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
    Not sure what altitude has to do with it. Can always start high enough so that's not the issue. Issue in this aircraft is likely bottom side over-G as a real limit with published Ops limits of X degrees nose low and it's thus prohibited. In others it's over-G and Airspeed Ops limits.

    In other words, I'm pretty sure the BONE would have no problem rolling inverted at 15K AGL at pattern speed and doing a 3G constant G pull, or whatever it's max G is, and recovering from the split S in 8-10K feet. It might be doing 600 KTS at the bottom, but I doubt it's a big deal. Then again, never flew one so I admit that I conject.
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 tazandjan, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
    Will- Over the top was prohibited by the F-111 Dash One and I am sure by the B-1B Dash One as well. With nose pointed down, altitude loss is such that you cannot pull enough g to make the recovery. Remember, wing loading on these aircraft is very high and here is a quote on the B-1B to explain why over the top is not a good idea.

    "Very high wing loading... restricts an airplane`s maximum altitude and its maneuvering ability at low altitude. The B-1B has the highest wing loading of any production aircraft in history. At 244 pounds per square foot, it is double that of the B-52 bomber and the Concorde supersonic transport (both of which come in at 112 pounds per square foot)."

    My F-111s had the same problem with a wing loading of around 126 lbs/ft2. You could loop one of the late models with higher thrust engines, but the maneuver was prohibited and not something you wanted to talk about. In contrast, an F-16 wing loading is around 75-85 lbs/ft2 depending on model. G capability also affects recovery, with the F-16's 9 g helping, the F-111 at 7.5 g not too bad, but the B-1B's much lower limit (less than 5, maybe as low as 3, need to ask someone), really hurts pull-out.
     
  9. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Thanks for the understandable explanation.

    The original post and title had some of us thinking..."no way can you loop a B-1" but not knowing why, for sure.

    And, of course there are no loops in the posters video.
     
  10. rob lay

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    can't every plane do a roll because you can keep G's at 1 or whatever level flight is?
     
  11. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

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    there is more than just air frame capability, don't forget about the instruments, fuel system, lubrication systems, and heads :=) which may not tolerate inversion or negative g 's
     
  12. Bob Parks

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    You're correct but if the airplane is subjected to positive 1G all the way around, nothing will know the difference. Tex Johnston made sure of that when he rolled the 367-80 (707 prototype) over Lake Washington. The flight engineer said that if you were blind -folded , you wouldn't have been able to tell that you were momentarily inverted. As you mentioned, if there had been a protracted negative load on the airplane , all kinds of things would have been damaged or deranged. In the case of the -80, the fuel system would have been a mess because the tank vents were in the upper surface of the wing, composed of " box stringers" that could possibly fill with fuel and turn into a jettison system. Gear-driven and full of oil, the constant speed drives and other equipment would be damaged. The worst of all would be the heads (lavs) that would redecorate the place...I never thought of that until Cheesy mentioned it.
     
  13. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    that's what I was thinking.
     
  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bob- Affirmative, as long as the pilot is skillful enough to maintain one g, just about anything can do a barrel roll. An aileron roll is a bit different.
     
  15. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Yes, but we were talking about loops, weren't we... those are differrent.
     
  16. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    A properly executed loop will have positive G all the way around. The entry and finish would have a bit more than 1G. I messed one up in a Champ one day and cleaned out all dried mud and "old chicken bones" from on and under the floor.
     
  17. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    You're right, as I thought after I wrote the above.
     
  18. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Veteran
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    Sorry, Taz, but the latter (altitude part) is conjecture too. I never said doing a split S in the BONE was a good idea nor suggested that it wasn't prohibited. But prohibited maneuvers, are such for many of the reasons you describe, such as very large altitude losses, and likely several other reasons. But a prohibited maneuver is not an impossible maneuver. Some are prohibited because they are difficult to do safely, are never practiced because there is no reason to do them, or have resulted in failures in the past even though they may have been done for ages before becoming prohibited.

    In the spirit of fun conjecture, I'd still bet it could be done without too much drama. And, maybe, a BONE driver will chime in at some point and tell us he's done one in the sim or something. That said, I'll still conject on the split-S because I'm not sure a B-1 has the grunt to get over the top without stalling before being at the top of the loop inverted. The split S would demonstrate the essential element of the recovery and here's how I'd do it: calculate stall speed for 15K MSL at lowest weight, no stores, at Joker plus fuel for the maneuver. Entry at 20 KIAS over stall at level flight at 15K. Slight pull up for a gentle barrel roll to inverted at 15K at 10KIAS over stall then set mil power and start a maximum performance pull to max AOA or whatever stall warning indicator they routinely use. At this point the aircraft will have a very high turn rate but rapidly increasing radius as airspeed imevitably increases with the help of gravity. Now eyes are on airspeed and G with the max performance pull maintained until the first of either corner velocity (which should be the first to be reached unless the maneuver has already been completed) or max G for current weight, with G taking precedence over corner speed until back in level flight. I'm guessing here, but wings in the U-2 position the whole way around.

    If someone tries this in the sim, I'm guessing they will complete by 5K MSL. The BONE is big, and yes, it has high wing loading, but it has wings, can maneouver with a metric $h!t tonne of bombs and gas on board, so I have faith that it could do this light-weight with a decent driver tugging on it. That said, I don't know squat about bombers So if the B-1 has a stupid max G, like 2.5 or something, then forget it. But if it's 3 or 4, I'll stick to my guns for argument's sake!

    WARNING: Children do not try this at home without asking your parents first!
     
  19. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Don't you mean "min power?"

     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Will- Sorry, just not a good idea. You have never seen how one of these things accelerates with the nose pointed down. The B-1B and my old F-111s are the equivalent of the P-47 when pointed downhill. Incidentally, the P-47 flight manual warned against the split S because of the extreme altitude loss. One reason why FW-190 and ME-109 pilots used the split S as an escape maneuver. No problem for a P-51 or Spitfire to follow, but the P-38 rolled too slowly, and the P-47 had a hard time pulling out.
     
  21. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Veteran
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    no...I meant Mil. That's full non-AB power.
     
  22. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Veteran
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    Nothing to be sorry about. I agree. I'm not trying to sell it as a grand idea. I'm just debating the possibility.

    Peace!
     
  23. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    I'm curious to ask a few folks I know what they might have tried.... There are tons of things that are terrible ideas but get done either accidentally or by people who don't know any better but it's always interesting to hear about it.

    One incident which comes to mind were some guys I know who put the props into reverse in a C-130 while at altitude. They lost 10k feet in a hurry but didn't actually bend the plane significantly.
     
  24. Hannibal308

    Hannibal308 F1 Veteran
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    Now, that, seems like a rubbish idea. I would have worried about ending up with a C-130 with B-1 wings...not good.
     
  25. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    significantly, as in ........?
     

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