Westwind-Anyone here ever fly one? | FerrariChat

Westwind-Anyone here ever fly one?

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Juan-Manuel Fantango, Nov 16, 2016.

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  1. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    #1 Juan-Manuel Fantango, Nov 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Westwind II | Business Jet Traveler

    Just kind of an abnormally of a jet in looks etc. Was reading about it and noted a crazy range and they are really low priced for a jet. I know that's just the ticket price, the price of admission is in everything else.

    For some reason it kind of reminds me of a Commander. I wonder if it is a Ted Smith design? Looks like visibility for the passengers would be superior.

    So I googled and found this: IAI Westwind - corporate transport

    From the article:

    "The Westwind has found a niche in the aeromedical market because of its low door, which facilitates easy patient loading, and spacious cabin, but more importantly because of its price and range: You can buy a mid-1980s model for less than $1 million and many of these are fitted with auxiliary fuel tanks that can boost range to 2,900 nautical miles. That makes the Westwind the only light jet that can cross the Atlantic or the continental U.S. without refueling."

    "The Westwind even costs much less than comparable vintage aircraft such as the Learjet 55 and Cessna Citation III-both of which fly a few knots faster but can cost nearly $1 million more and have nowhere near the Westwind's range. And its cabin is more spacious because of its ovoid, as opposed to oval, fuselage shape. "There's more head-and-shoulder room than in a Citation or a Learjet," said Paul Thomas, one of the country's leading Westwind brokers.

    Thomas added that the Westwind has other advantages, including a baggage compartment that can hold nearly 1,000 pounds, good short-field landing capability, sprightly time-to-climb and a maintenance schedule that is based on how many hours you actually fly the airplane rather than on calendar intervals. Those who fly less than 400 hours a year find this last attribute particularly attractive, Thomas said.

    He also praised the Westwind's design for enhancing passenger comfort. The engines are 13 feet behind the rear cabin bulkhead, making for a quiet interior. The mid-fuselage-mounted wing mitigates the impact of turbulence and delivers a smooth ride."
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  2. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 donv, Nov 17, 2016
    I have experience in Jet Commanders through Westwind IIs. The Jet Commander was the first jet I ever flew, and the Westwind was the second (although, to be fair, they are technically the same type). They were a Ted Smith design originally.

    I haven't flown one in about 15 years, though. Not particularly fun to hand fly, but the Westwinds all had reasonably good autopilots. The range listed in that article is a bit overstated. Yes, you can usually go from the west coast to the east coast nonstop, but rarely the other way. You can go to Hawaii on the right day, as long as you understand the risks you are taking. I've never done the north atlantic in a Westwind, but I imagine it would be fine.

    Great airplanes, if you can find parts and have a mechanic who knows about them and understands how they work. Don't expect to take a Westwind to any old A&P-- you'll regret it. There is a shop in Texas which specializes in them.

    They are dirt cheap to buy, but as with any sort of cheap jet, your annual budget will probably exceed the purchase price!
     
  3. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 donv, Nov 17, 2016
    Also, the Westwinds had rather funky avionics. The Westwind 1124 and Westwind 1 had an integrated system from Collins-- the NCS-31. This system was okay, sort of, when it worked, but they didn't age well, and since it was all integrated, any sort of problem would sideline the entire system-- comms, navs, transponder, etc. A coworker of mine had to fly halfway across the country talking on 121.5 because the NCS gave out.

    The Westwind II had a different, less integrated system from Collins featuring a VLF/Omega box-- the LRN-70, I believe. It was incredibly user-unfriendly, and with the end of VLF/Omega, turned into a boat anchor.

    I'm sure that any Westwind that has flown in the 21st century has been upgraded by now...
     
  4. Ericjg4

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    #4 Ericjg4, Nov 17, 2016
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  5. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    #5 Juan-Manuel Fantango, Nov 17, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
    Bad news. I googled and found a few of these stories

    O.C. Jet Crash Tape Indicates Pilot Knew Risk - latimes

    I thought this was interesting on handling.

    The Westwind flies kind of like a Chevy Suburban with bad ball joints. It does, however, provide good range, compfort, reasonable speed, and better than average runway performance. I don't have a problem with 3,000 foot runways if the weight is right, nor do I hesitate to cross the Pacific with the benefit of the AUX tank. At normal cruise, you can go 5 hours and have about a one hour reserve at the end. You can fly them without the Yaw Damper, but if you do, especially in the Westind II, you and your passengers will feel like praying to the porcelain Buddha before very long.
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 tazandjan, Nov 17, 2016
    Don- Seems like a lot of folks do not understand that east vs west thing. In an F-111, we could take off from Sacramento, CA and fly non-stop to Ft Walton Beach, FL with 8000 lbs (1 hour plus) fuel remaining pretty nearly all the time. No way from Ft Walton back to Sacramento, though. Had to stop in Clovis, NM or Las Vegas, NV. That was usually at FL 260, too. Even worse higher. Has something to do with the Earth rotating, maybe.
     
  7. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #7 Tcar, Nov 17, 2016
    It IS an Aero Commander with the wings moved to mid fuselege and turbines bolted to the rear.
    So yes designed by Ted Smith.
     
  8. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 donv, Nov 17, 2016
    That was a wake turbulence accident-- not the airplane's fault at all.

    The guy you quoted is correct about the yaw damper! For that matter, hand flying at altitude was a real pain in the Westwind... the wing rock was very hard to damp out. Even with the autopilot and yaw damper working, it has a tendency to sit there and rock the wings.

    If I remember correctly, you could hand fly the Westwind II all you wanted, but the I/1124 had a limitation about hand flying above something like M0.71... it really needed a mach trim system.

    3,000 foot runway is braver than I ever was-- I think 4,000 feet was our minimum. Maybe 3,500. It was not a great short field airplane, even though I heard stories about people going in and out of sub-3,000 feet runways.

     

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