A Cold Start, Rough Idle FIX!! | FerrariChat

A Cold Start, Rough Idle FIX!!

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by kerrywittig, Sep 8, 2009.

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  1. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    Nov 10, 2005
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    Kerry David Wittig
    Found this on another F car site and thought it might be of interest over here on Fchat. The "fix" is not inexpensive at $742 via F pimp, but is much more economical at least at the $129 pricing!! I believe this may be the relay that Steve M. and I tried to locate at a reasonable price a few months ago. I filed the pix of this relay, somewhere, where I'd be able to find it............Notice I didn't post it!!..LOL
    Kerry
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Model: Testarossa 1990 with 14,000 miles, top condition, used very rarely

    Problem:
    Engine starts with difficulty from cold. Does not hold idle. If gas pedal is pressed, engine stalls. After many attempts and with engine temperature warming, engine runs, however poorly and stumbling. After full warm-up engine runs but performance is way down. Engine does not rev freely between 2000-3000 rpm.

    Solution
    The culprit was a faulty relay located in a metal box on the top of the inside right rear-wheel arch. Ferrari GB quoted an astronomical £ 450 ($742 usd) and said the relay had to be ordered from Italy with an unknown time of delivery.
    The relay (part no: UD 26220) is a special relay with a 10A fuse situated in a box on top of the inside rear wheel-arch and has a potentiometer and digital of circuitry inside. I do not know exactly what it does, but even without it being connected, the engine could start with difficulty and exhibiting the symptoms I mentioned above.
    I traced the relay through a Rolls Royce and Bentley Parts Dealer for the reasonable price of £ 78 ($129 usd). The same relay is used to control the Bentley ABS unit.
     
  2. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    Part number and model ???
     
  3. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    What?.............Wow no one wants to do any leg work? I posted this as a helpful hint that there is a part available from RR.........Do some detective work Sparta.
    Kerry
     
  4. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    Dear Ferraristi,

    Come now Kerry,


    If you're going to post with a great find, lay it all out with part numbers and where to get it....just like I do.

    What you have found sounds like it will benefit the TR community greatly, don't stop short.


    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
    MOSS likes this.
  5. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    I'm sure somebody will return the favor when you are in the middle of your next dilemma.
     
  6. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Apr 26, 2006
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    I believe that all this is about the "Protection Relay" which in some shape of form control the frequency valve operation...

    As I recall, one of "our sponsors" was peddling this part North of $400 USD and when called upon "suddenly" admitted that it was a pricing error...and could be had for around $100.

    A stardard, off the shelf Porsche part...as I recollect.

    Then again, I've got a carbed car...

    Best,
    David
     
  7. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    My god..........share a bit of info, that I stumbled across and I get my ass kicked for it.

    Don't you "boys" think that if I had that info I'd share it..i

    I can't supply what I don't have. So much for instigating ideas that might help the TR community. If it isn't all packaged and tied up neatly with a bow.............Astounding!!

    Unfortunately the clock has ticked to long....I'd just delete the post and save you all the aggrevation I've caused to you.

    fastradio excluded...........he contributes useful info, rather than whine that he wasn't hand fed the details........

    Kerry
     
  8. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    ....hey, I like my packages neatly tied up in a bow.

    ....you still forgetting to take your medication Kerry? :D




    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
    MOSS likes this.
  9. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    Get your hand outta Newman's pocket...........
     
  10. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    ....well, his panties do keep falling down.....when my Lambo doors go up. :D


    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
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  11. blu328gts

    blu328gts Formula 3
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    #11 blu328gts, Sep 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  12. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    #12 sparta49, Sep 9, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
    If you don't have it then you should have said so to begin with but since you know the price in pounds and dollars of the relay then I would think you also would have asked for the part number or at least the model it came from. Finish the job next time instead of passing it off to others. Also it is useless information without a starting point other than some Bentley or RR use a relay. I don't have a RR or Bentley dealer nextdoor to go run to to try to match up the part.
     
  13. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    Excuse me waiter!....Mr.Sparta needs some cheese over here please!

    In other words Sparta........Your a whiner.

    Ever tried to grasp the concept of sharing what limited info one may come across and spur the possibility that with that limited info, shared with a "forum" of other enthusiasts, that as a large group we all might be able to do some collective detective work and fill in the missing info. I thought that's what this "forum" was all about sharing info, exchanging ideas, searching for elusive parts and info...........obviously you have put yourself on a pedestal (with others, I might add) that would rather have it, that if it isn't all nice and neatly presented then don't share. Your attitude is ridiculous and lazy.

    As I posted early on when the complainers voiced their disappointment that there was "missing" info..I should and I would have deleted the post so as not to interfere with your arrogance. But I was too late, thankfully, and not really ready to withhold info that might be helpful to others rather than make it all about me!

    I now have a new word in my daily vocabulary when describing laziness and selfishness............sparta...as in, "Don't be a sparta!"
    See how I just took limited info and made it worthwhile?

    Kerry

    PS I have sent out some emails and will be making some calls today, to certain individuals and RR/Bentley dealers to see if I can get the info we need. It takes some time and effort sometimes to get it but when & if I do............I will post it. Or maybe someone else may find that info and share. ....

    I'm tired of this pissing match anyway..so any more posts from me concerning this thread will have useable info rather than argument and criticism. Done!
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 Steve Magnusson, Sep 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Unfortunately, no. The fuse in the Hella relay would blow if the current flowing from the 30 terminal to the 87 terminal was excessive (and same for the Bosch protection relay), but the Bosch protection relay also has a Zener diode (Z22 in the diagram) inside that (intentionally) causes the fuse to blow if the voltage on terminal 30 goes too high (if the voltage regulator inside the alternator fails) -- the Hella relay would not do this. This is where the odd "protection" name comes from -- it "protects" the components (usually an ECU) connected to the 87 terminal from an overvoltage (wrongly) appearing on terminal 30.

    Here's the technical symbol for the Bosch protection relay -- if anyone finds something similar, please post information/source:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you the whiner who took your ball and left awhile back ?? Well don't let the door hit ya.
     
  16. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    Dear Ferraristi,

    Isn't this "protection" relay also called a "C" relay?

    I remember that from past posts it was used on the Porsche 928...at least the part # starts with 928.....


    If yours breaks, and it's too expensive, perhaps you can "glue" it back :D

    ....sorry, couldn't resist. :)


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  17. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

    Sep 9, 2006
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    Steve, remembder my old problem of the car jerking when cruising at 100 / 105 kmph in top gear, right on the 2400 - 2600 RPM line?

    Could a fault with this relay cause that issue?

    My car runs well at idle, but if you need to move it a few feet before it's really warmed up, there is no way the mongrol thing will idle again. You have to sit and very gradually tickle it down and after a while you can walk away from it idling again.

    Given the info supplied by Kerry in the first post here, maybe this is where my problem lies.

    Is this relay mounted in that triangular box? We did some testing on those a couple of years back and I think mine passed everything, but maybe it's intermittent?
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 Steve Magnusson, Sep 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    (I can't remember everyone's TR so these comments apply to an F113B engine -- if you have something else, please advise.)

    I think it unlikely that the protection relay could cause this fault directly, but, if the protection relay isn't working, and then the manual mixture screws are tweaked to make warm-running sort of OKish, maybe a symptom like this might be possible.

    This clearly is not normal behavior so as long as you have this symptom something is definitely not right.

    Yes, it's mounted in the black triangular box over the RH rear wheel well. You can test it there, but I like to make the test at the "red wire" at the water thermoswitch on the side the the "Y" water housing at the front-top of the engine. The reason is that the +12V food chain is:

    "+" battery terminal -to- starter solenoid post -to- protection relay "C" terminal 30 -to- protection relay "C" terminal 87 (when closed) -to- injection ECUs -to- water thermoswitch

    so by measuring at the water thermoswitch you also are checking the connections inbetween; whereas, if you measure directly at the protection relay, it could be OK there, but not really reaching the injection ECUs because of a bad connection. Here are the testing instructions:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. cdatte

    cdatte Karting

    Mar 1, 2007
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    I'll have to check it out, I have an 88 and it just started exhibiting the same problem, was poking around to see what others have found. If I hit it with some starting fluid, it starts right up
     
  20. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #20 Melvok, Sep 21, 2009
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  21. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie

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    #21 uzz32soarer, Sep 21, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2009
    Yep, comes up as a standard Rolls Royce part: R/Royce part number: UD26220 RELAY ABS

    I just tried to find a back up source and located this site:

    http://www.flyingspares.com/?gclid=CKetxJnsgp0CFZMwpAodWCP8bg

    They list 1980 - 1998 series Rolls and if you scroll down to the bottom of the ABS parts they show two different numbers:

    RELAY UD26633 £18.05
    ABS MODULE IN ENGINE BAY UR27685U £250.00

    Not very helpful, sorry.
     
  22. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Call any Porsche dealer..this realy is a Porsche 928 part. They are starting to fail on a regular basis now.
     
  23. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    Yeeeah.....I did say that ! :D


    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
  24. cdatte

    cdatte Karting

    Mar 1, 2007
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    Chuck
    I have an 88 that's doing the same thing, hard cold start will idle but if you step on the accellerator it dies, red the thread, pulled the box and the relay rattles when you shake it.
    had a couple of questions

    what wiring diag. references it ? found the one for the fuel pump relays but don't see the one for this. found the one called "general layout rear section & engine" is there another ?

    it wasn't plugged in all the way either, the mount is on the plug end and makes it easier to slide out than the other relay next to it which has the mount on the relay.

    I'm getting a quote of $488.00 direct in Cal.
    # on the relay is 928 615 124 00

    did notice that neither the box nor the relay mounts are shock mounted, has anybody tried that ?
     
  25. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The protection relay doesn't appear in the TR WSM schematics because those only apply to the F113A engine family (and that family doesn't use one). It's shown in the F113A040 and F113B wiring diagram books.

    Way too much $ -- you can buy it from Ricambi for the very reasonable IMO price of $110:

    http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=229521

    You might find it for a little bit less if you search Porsche parts suppliers, but I wouldn't spend an hour searching for a couple of $ ;).
     

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