starting a testarossa | FerrariChat

starting a testarossa

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by jamesrobba, Nov 2, 2009.

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  1. jamesrobba

    jamesrobba Karting

    Dec 5, 2005
    211
    north downey, calif.
    Full Name:
    james joseph robba
    had my 89 testarossa for five years , live in calif it's always started on the 4 or 5 key turns never the frist key turn .during the years i have changed the starter the fuel accumutors and all required maint performed no help it takes 4 to five turns of the key and it starts each time on the money , also the owner before me said that just the way the car is please help if anyone esle had this problem it does not matter if it's hot or cold . thank you jim from calif
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Do you mean that you hold the key in Pos III (start) and get nothing, and have to do that 4~5 times until the starter motor finally engages for the first time,

    or

    You put the key in Pos III, the starter motor engages and turns the engine over for a few seconds, but never fires until about the 4~5 time of doing that?
     
  3. Driven1413

    Driven1413 Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2004
    649
    South Shore, MA
    Full Name:
    Alex
    When starting my 1990 TR, I would turn the key to the "On" position and wait for the fuel pump to begin... then I would wait a few second and crank the ignition. It always fired right up. Are you giving the fuel pump time to come on?
     
  4. jamesrobba

    jamesrobba Karting

    Dec 5, 2005
    211
    north downey, calif.
    Full Name:
    james joseph robba
    get in the car turn the key and car will not start it cranks fine but will not start , i need to do this 4 to 5 times and then it will start up .turn the key until the engine cranks over , it take 4 to 5 times , maybe i am not waiting for the fuel pumps to come on i am turning the key to fast . do you have to wait , please help thank you jim
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    No you do not need to wait for the pumps. They only run for about 1/2 second when key is switched to on anyway. They really only run while cranking or after motor start.
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #6 Steve Magnusson, Nov 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    OK, understood (and I'll assume that this is a US version F113A040 engine family TR so please advise if otherwise).

    To begin the investigation, I would suggest that you make some voltage measurements at the white connectors (while plugged in) at the bottom of the fuse-relay panel during the cranking periods when the engine won't start:

    TEST #1 -- Measure the voltage on the two BL (white/blue) wires in the "y" connector relative to ground. These BL wires are connected to terminal 15a on the back of the starter solenoid. When the starter solenoid is actually operating, this BL wire should be +12V, and it serves many functions to start the engine:

    1. it fires the cold start injectors (if the thermo-time switch is cold/closed),

    2. it closes the tachometric relay -- which closes the fuel pump relays which run the fuel pumps, and

    3. it puts +12V on terminal 24 of the injection ECUs which "tells" the injection ECU to (greatly) increase the EHA current and add more richness to aid engine light-off.

    TEST #2 -- Measure the voltage on the large P (beige) and PN (beige/black) wires that go to the fuel pumps (relative to ground) to confirm that the fuel pumps are actually running during the cranking events when the engine isn't starting. If you pass Test #1, but fail Test #2 this would be a bad sign for the tachometric relay or maybe the ignition switch itself.

    TEST #3 -- If you always pass both Test #1 and Test #2 during cranking events when the engine isn't starting, I'd suggest that you unplug one of the injection ECUs and measure the voltage on terminal 24 in the unplugged 25-pin harness connector (i.e., it could be possible for the +12V signal on the BL wire to reach the "y" connector but not reach the injection ECUs). Of course, the engine probably won't start with one injection ECU unplugged, but, as long as the starter is cranking, that's enough to make this test.

    Just a suggestion for some fairly easy tests that won't get you greasy ;), and might provide a clue about the trouble (and your engine starting behavior is certainly abnormal). Let me know your results (even if all seems OK), and I'll try to help read the tea leaves...
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. jamesrobba

    jamesrobba Karting

    Dec 5, 2005
    211
    north downey, calif.
    Full Name:
    james joseph robba
    #7 jamesrobba, Nov 3, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
    thank you steve i will try this on friday day off , the person that had the car before me which he had it for 9 years said that's the way it would start on the 4 th key turn with the engine cranking over . what brings you say it might be the ign sw if i may say the key look brand new the car only has 12k on it . i will do all you said and get back to you please . in closing the car should start on the first key turn ! i was t/shooting it and also reading about the tachometer relay , does this have any thing also to do with the tach , sometime the tach will not read correctly when driving the car , it will be lower and up and down doing around 60 to 70 mph and then it will work find for a while. is this tachometer hard to change or get at and what about price please thank you again steve very very helpful
     
  8. cryorunner

    cryorunner Karting

    Aug 11, 2009
    161
    San Diego, CA
    Full Name:
    James
    Steve will set you in the right direction for sure. He's a real asset here. Yes the thing should start on the first key turn, at least mine does.

    Just a note on the tachometer, yes the feed to tachometric relay may be something you end up looking at, but if it turns out that the pickup is OK you may still have issues with the tachometer itself. Though I've had a harder time finding info about TR failures, it seems it's common enough on the 328 and Mondials with the same branding and era. Here's an example thread that gives some links for repairs at the end. I still haven't gotten to mine as I want to check the signal from the ignition to the tach first.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246801

    By the way, if you haven't done it yet, taking off the instrument cluster is a lot less scary than it might seem (though I have yet to separate the tach from the the rest). Unfortunately mine magically worked perfectly once for an entire drive, but for the rest of the time has always read exactly 1/2 of the expected value.
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    No, there’s no real functional connection between the tachometric relay and the tachometer. If your engine runs well/smooth while the tachometer is misbehaving then the trouble is most likely in the tachometer itself (or perhaps in some of the electronics inside the MicroPlex ignition ECU that are only used to drive the tachometer).

    There is another test that I think you should try for your starting problem even before any of the prior tests:

    TEST #0: Measure the voltage on the R (red) wire at the water thermoswitch to confirm/deny if the protection relay is working and supplying +12V to run the KE-Jet injection system.

    This jpeg describes how to make the test:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If your protection relay is not working, the EHA currents will be 0 mA which would cause an otherwise properly adjusted US TR to run very weakly/poorly when warm. Almost unfortunately, if the Mechanic (wrongly) tweaks the mixture screws to add richness to improve warm-running, rather than fixing the protection relay, the engine can be made to run fairly well when warm, but every other mode will be poor (starting, cold-running after starting, throttle blip during cold-running, etc.) because the EHA currents will always be at a fixed value of 0 mA (the “normal” average EHA current at sea level during warm-running is 10mA and the injection ECUs increase the EHA currents when they “think” they needs to add richness, like for starting).

    If you fail Test #0, I wouldn’t even bother with the other tests until you fix the protection relay operation (and you’ll probably need to retweak the mixtures if it is running fairly well now when warm if the protection relay is not working). If you need to fix the protection relay operation, do a search on “TR protection relay” for threads like these:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179893
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229660

    that describe how to troubleshoot that gizmo.

    If you pass Test #0, then go on to the other tests.

    Good Hunting!
     
  10. lasvegascop

    lasvegascop Karting

    Apr 12, 2009
    222
    Las Vegas, NV
    Full Name:
    "Ski"
    In case someone stumbles on this old thread and needs answers.....

    I was having the same issues. After start and warm up, she would not restart.....I changed battery to a brand new one....same thing. I got the starter rebuilt with brand new up to date solenoid.....no go....Next I changed the relay in the fuse box and cleaned the connections at the connector under the coolant overflow....same crap..BTW, I dropped a brand new fuse box couple years ago cause the radiator fan's melted it!!!Since than I installed relays for the rad and oil cooler fans....I had a buddy of mine turn the key to start and I measured the voltage going to the starter...showed 12v (didn't check amps cause I have no clue what the norm is for a solenoid to work).....as it supposed to. The main starter cable (thick) I replaced the quick disconnect running on the lower left frame rail cause it was cracked ....same thing.....SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO after 2 years of headaches, I finally gave in and installed a simple 30A Bosch relay you can pick up at the Auto Zone. Took me literally 30 minutes of work and I took her for a 30 minute spin around the block ...restarted a few times and starts like brand new car!
    I presume there's a amp leak down somewhere at one of the connections.....but who knows where?? I presume it will be under the dash cause that's the hardest place to get to!! ahhahaha I will be updating all the posts possible with my solution, which I hope it will help all....
     
  11. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    You put a relay on the starter solenoid, feeding off the key power, putting direct power from the starter cable to the solenoid when turning the key, right? That's the standard fix for the hot start problem, no?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. lasvegascop

    lasvegascop Karting

    Apr 12, 2009
    222
    Las Vegas, NV
    Full Name:
    "Ski"
    The solid white wire that was going to the starter solenoid now goes to the trigger side of the relay.... So yes, but when I was searching back in the day nothing came up so I figured I just post it up ya know? Haha
     
  13. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    Lol no prob, I've done the fix to my tr, just wanted to make sure that was what you were talking about :)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. UpNorth

    UpNorth Formula 3
    Owner

    Sep 30, 2006
    1,767
    Quebec, Canada
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    Francois
    Could one of you guys post pics of what you did? I have the same problem but I ain't no mecanics and would like to understand a little more how you did it.
    TIA
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    In my experience the biggest culprit is the connection under the coolant tank. The square connector under there has small, badly designed pin connectors that best case basis just work well enough. I bypass that connector for the white solenoid wire and install a 1/4 insulated spade connector in it's place. Since 1985 including our own TR and client TR's with triple digit mileage I have never had to resort to installing a relay. It is just a band aid.
     
  16. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
    1,829
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Christian
    Just thinking out loud for my own knowledge.....Is there a one way check valve for the fuel to maintain fuel supply/pressure to the FI? My thinking is if this valve allows fuel to flow back when not in use.....it would make sense that it takes multiple cranks to get fuel back up to the place that it ignites.

    Plausible?
     
  17. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    The fuel accumulators' job is to maintain pressure in the system when off if I'm not mistaken.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  18. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    #18 rpissm, Nov 22, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2016


    White wire from solenoid comes from ignition switch. Put that on one side of the 'low' current circuit on the relay. Ground the other contact on the low side of the relay. Run a thick wire from the positive battery cable on the back of the starter (keep the battery cable connected to the starter too) to one of the 'high' current connectors on the relay. Connect the other high current connector on the relay to the back of the solenoid where the white wire was connected. Now, when you turn the switch, the low current relay circuit will engage, the relay diaphragm will engage, and a big jolt of electricity will flow to the solenoid, forcing it to engage the starter. Just make sure you use a relay that was designed to be used in an engine compartment! The local ferrari dealer didn't use the right kind, nearly cost me my starter and a whole lot more (I posted about it here if you want to read about it!)

    Whoooooa, weird starter problem!
    https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eferrarichat%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D492538&share_tid=492538&share_fid=9080&share_type=t



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Just for completeness, there are other troublesome connections in the white wire path from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid at the w connector and the y connector:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    On any TR, I would (and did) add a jumper wire to directly connect those two wires together rather than rely on two flaky connections in the white connectors.

    That's the tricky bit for doing the "added relay" modification as the underbonnet environment is harsh (especially on the top of a hot TR engine).
     
  20. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,101
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    Mel
    #20 Melvok, Nov 23, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I had to "bridge" the white wire of my 512TR once also ... internal path was burnt ...

    Works fine ...

    But I also remember people here warning NEVER to install that extra relais because .... it may trigger the starter unwanted ...

    Am I now the only one that remembers this ?

    Yellow arrow: small relais as mentionned;
    Green arrow: PLUS from relais to the solenoid of starter
    Red arrow : line from fuseboard to trigger relais now (normally the solenoid) ...

    Any Help to you ?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    No, that is a risk of doing the "add a relay" modification (especially if done poorly) -- which is why I prefer to not do it.
     
  22. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    Yes, and the relay you have pictured is the kind that the Ferrari dealer installed on mine! (ie, it's an internal fusebox relay not designed for engine compartment use!)

    An old Ford starter relay / solenoid like this one is designed for use in engine compartments, since that's where it's at on old Mustangs, etc:

    Alloy Metal Products 6006 Mustang Starter Solenoid Autolite 1967-1972
     
  23. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

    Mar 21, 2008
    2,987
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    Robbie
    I agree. No need for the added relay. It's a simple fix and that connector is junk. Seems everyone still wants to add the relay. Your bringing them to the water Brian but they don't want to drink.


    R
     
  24. UpNorth

    UpNorth Formula 3
    Owner

    Sep 30, 2006
    1,767
    Quebec, Canada
    Full Name:
    Francois
    Reading this thread again I pulled the antifreeze tank out of the way this morning so I could get access to the above mentioned connector.
    When I unpluged it grime as everywhere. So I used a compressed air can to get ugly stuff out of the way and then a can of connector cleaner. Waited a little time for things to dry out. Got all things together again.
    And then...Vrooom!...On first crank!
    Didn't happen since a lot of time!
    Just wow! Car is in garage for winter now, can't wait for next season to see if it will be a lasting effect.
     
  25. tf308

    tf308 Formula 3

    Dec 14, 2003
    1,168
    Virginia Beach
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    Tim
    On the TR with CIS, don't you also have fuel pump check valves? (In addition to Accumulator)

    My thought is that you could not have a standing pressure in your fuel system so the car may not start right up. Have you measured the fuel pressure?

    Also, does the TR have a cold start injector?(Maybe its not working)


    My 308qv has all of the above components, so I imagine a CIS TR has them too.


    Just a few other thoughts.
     

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