Need a Part# 170956-VACUUM PUMP | FerrariChat

Need a Part# 170956-VACUUM PUMP

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by kerrywittig, Jan 1, 2011.

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  1. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    #1 kerrywittig, Jan 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Found that the shaft within the brake vacuum pump, that is driven by the drivers side exhaust camshaft (located just below the distributor), has broken.....and must have been like that since before I owned the car......coz the pump shaft is not even there....disapperared.......just must of been removed and forgotten about. So I am looking for either a replacement shaft or a pump.......Is there a supplier of an "aftermarket" shaft....if indeed the pump is rebuildable.......remnents of the shaft rotate very freely within the pump housing.........rumor has it that someone here on Fchat has access to a replacement or anyone have a used one.....shaft or pump they'd like to sell. I am told that the brakes work much better when this little pump is .....operational!!!

    No I have not called any "dealers" for the Ferrari pricing..............yet! I'm a scared!!!

    Part #170956-VACUUM PUMP Number 61 in the pix.......I wonder if 62 is the "shaft"?

    Shafted Me....oops.....Non-shafted Me
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  2. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    $3K from allferrariparts.com 3,400 at Rutlands, Ricambis doesn't have a price listed. Give GT Car Parts a call for a used one if all else fails
     
  3. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    Part 62 is the pump coupling for 1 hundred and a half at rutlands
     
  4. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

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    Brakes do work much better with it operational. Just sent a a PM regarding some info on the part your looking for. Ferrari cost is crazy specially when 10 years ago it was about $400.00. Now over $3,500.00 from Ferrari.. Difficult part to find used and shafts are few and far between.. they are also expensive as well.. Check your pm and hope you find what you need.

    R
     
  5. Juri

    Juri Formula Junior
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    #5 Juri, Jan 2, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2011
    Kerry,
    Your best bet for the whole new vacuum pump from dealers in US is on eBay from TRutlands: item number 390196180219 ($1,711.18, which is 50% less than on their official site); Then Eurospares (£757.50); then "junkyards" parting out Testarossas...
    As for the shaft (part #121054), IMO, $151.26 is a reasonable price from RicambiAmerica: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=195159
     
  6. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    I thought that the pump was probably expensive........but NOT even $1700+ expensive!! I shall continue to search................

    Note to ALL perspective buyers of a "used" TR. Have someone that is qualified and well versed in the idiosyncrasies of TR's do a PPI. I did not, and therefore have been exposed to a long list of shortcomings. This vacuum pump is a place to CHECK….it is only a 15 minute job to remove 4-10mm nuts and a hose. If the owner/seller won’t agree……..walk away.

    By the way , the brakes are still I think by most standards amazing, even with this part missing. I in fact have always commented to people that one of the things that really caught my attention when purchasing this car was that the brakes rocked!

    Also I have talked to a couple F car gurus in the past few days…and was told that they have heard and/or found this problem on more and more TR’s………….

    I am about to, after this experience, start a thread to list of what to look for when buying a TR. I now after 4 years of ownership have a much better insight into these cars…..and man have I got a list!

    No PPI me

    P.S. I am in no way indicting the previous owner……this, as well as other problems, were probably there previous to their purchasing the car initially.
     
  7. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

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    #7 carguy, Jan 2, 2011
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    Hi Kerry. Your TR did in fact have a broken pump when I bought it. The previous owner installed an electric vacuum pump in the area under the left rear fender as a fix. So I bought a new pump and installed it...and removed the crappy electric pump. Below is a pic of the old pump I removed, and the box that the new pump came in. You should have the receipt for that new pump in your records somewhere. Just thought you should know....
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  8. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

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    The only problem with leaving it is if that o ring fails, oil will leak causing the cam to starve, then engine damage.

    R
     
  9. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

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    #9 Mr.Chairman, Jan 2, 2011
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    That is a bosch pump??? I did not see any bosch name or numbers on my pump and it looks exactly like yours.. If that was replaced and never removed then where is the broken piece? Hey Kerry you sure you can't find that broken sprocket piece to the pump?? If it was changed and never removed till now, that piece has to be somewhere.. If not then something does not add up...

    R
     
  10. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    #10 kerrywittig, Jan 2, 2011
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    Must be that these TR's snap the shafts every so often and eats the broken part/shaft!
    There was no shaft in the cam or pump and I have never removed the vacuum pump previous to this rebuild...........the Enzo spirits work in strangeways!!

    Enzo took it ME
     
  11. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

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    #11 Mr.Chairman, Jan 2, 2011
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    Can't be.. that piece slides into the cam shaft and has no place to go... If that piece is missing then things don't add up.. Keep looking.. specially in the cam opening that receives the pump..

    Here is a photo.. that lower cam shaft has an opening to receive that pump sprocket.. as you can see it has no place to go if broken except stay inside the cam..

    R
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  12. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    both heads were "completely" rebuilt......and I did question the machinist....he never saw it, and this guy returned every gasket, seal, shim, every scrap that was removed or replaced while the heads were being refurbished.... myself I have looked high and low through all the parts removed and that are all labeled, placed in bags or containers and I can assure anyone that there was NOT a shaft present...if so I would have posted this question months ago. Now when reassembleing I noticed that the part/pump appeared to have a weird sorta surface(where the shaft once lived) and upon peering into the end of the camshaft then realized that there was a shaft that was driven by the cam....that was missing. I then made some calls and was informed that it was a brake vacuum boost pump and that there should be a shaft in there somewhere.....not......I had removed the pump anyways prior to sending to the shop.......anyway...

    Jeff what are the numbers on the bosch endflap? By the time I magnify they are unreadable....see what I can find that may use this pump also....... Thanks.

    Need #'s Me
     
  13. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    I will take some pix within the hour and post them later today..........again I am trying to accuse....I am just stating that that shaft was, is not there and I have never seen it. trust me I would hve been posting about this as I said months ago when it was torn down if I had seen a piece floating about!

    Pix on the way Me
     
  14. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

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    The pump is not a bosch pump.. It has some italian name (slips my mind at the moment) but for sure not bosch and not sure as to why it would come in a bosch box.. Maybe carguy thought he was getting a new pump and who ever did the repair and or replacement put it back as is hoping it would just go away.. That would suck if carguy paid money for the new pump and to find out later it was never installed.. If this is not the case where is broken piece?? Good luck.. bottom line now is that you have to spend extra funds to make it right.. f*cked up..!!

    R
     
  15. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

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    #15 carguy, Jan 2, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2011
    I bought the new vacuum pump from Algar Ferrari I believe. The label on the box has a bunch of numbers. Here are the numbers, going from top to bottom:

    914265180
    0204142047810GD
    969 1 PZ/ST

    On top of this label is a small sticker with the Ferrari part number "170956". I can't read much of the stuff on the pump, but I do see the word "TALIA"....but can't make out any other features.
     
  16. Juri

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    The BOSCH part number for the vacuum pump is 02041420478 (Ferrari part 170956).
    This one is really hard to find at a lower price, but everything is possible... :)
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This thread has some good reference photos showing the female splines in item 62 and the male spline part of the vacuum pump shaft that breaks off (that I guess you should be looking for):

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190708

    At ~$3K each, that might/should get Verell's interest going to make replacement shafts and rebuild those puppies ;)
     
  18. Juri

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    Steven,
    The coupling into the shaft looks quite simple... Question is - how does this shaft couple inside the vacuum pump head?
    Also, it is rather stange that this shaft is prone to break, because the torque transmitted to the pump head is not that large (I may be wrong, however...).
    Nevertheless, it may be benefitial to the community to get this part manufactured from an allow with much higher rotational tensile strength...
    Juri.
     
  19. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
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    #19 kerrywittig, Jan 2, 2011
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    Here are pix of the internals of my "broken" pump.........

    I found a variety of problems and clues!?!?!?

    First the gasket was pretty much wasted. it was obviously reused, broken in two places and was thoroughly oil soaked.

    Second the O-ring in side the housing itself that seals the body of the pump with the top was of the wrong size! How it sealed at all is a mystery.

    Third the part of the shaft that remained in the pump housing shows that when the shaft broke off in two that the piece that would have remained in the camshaft wore of the sharp edges that a break like this would leave on the corresponding piece. In other words it is some what rounded off.

    Fourth, there is a pin/dowel or some type of material that blocks the internal bore of the camshaft partially that would NOT allow the broke shaft splined section to slide into the “interior” of the camshaft and be “hidden“ away. It can be seen in the pix below.

    And lastly, I found absolutely no shards, powder, pieces or ground up metal that would have either been left behind when either the shaft broke or even more interesting when the two halves of the shaft were “grinding’ against each other after the break.

    The Enzo spirit continues to defy all logic!!

    Spirtual ME
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  20. kerrywittig

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    #20 kerrywittig, Jan 2, 2011
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    I also need if anyone can get a good veiw.....the numbers that are stamped into the pump housing cover in this high-lighted area............mine say 65?.............can't figure out the last digit?......
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  21. Juri

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    #21 Juri, Jan 2, 2011
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    Kerry,
    Personally, I can not make out any numbers from the pic you posted.
    Therefore, I went and took a pictures from my car engine (attached).
    Apparenly, this is some kind of a production number and not an identifying part number, bceause is is stamped in. Mine says 210.
    You make your own conclusions, of course...
    Cheers.
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  22. kerrywittig

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    #22 kerrywittig, Jan 2, 2011
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    Thanks Juri! Yeah I was wondering if the #'s were consistent, maybe a part #.....but must be either a manufacturing date code or inner company ID of some type.....So my search will continue! Once I have knocked on every door......I will concede to reverse engineering this shaft and make it available at a "reasonable" price. I have another pump that should be in my hands within the week, and if it has a complete shaft..............Then it should be a very easy matter to duplicate.....except this time,..... out of better materials.

    Searchin' for a vacuum............pump ME
     
  23. Juri

    Juri Formula Junior
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    Kerry, I will call my friend in BOSCH in Germany tomorrow to find out about the vacuum pump... Hang in there, buddy! :)

    As for the re-manufacturing of the shaft, a shop that manufactures a lot of parts for NASA can replicate this little thingy from the best material at no time... I would like to have a more reliable one as well, before it brakes... Send me a PM to discuss this off-line.

    Trying to be helpfull me.
     
  24. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    Remember when redesigning it out of bomb proof materials..... It is the fuseable link with a rubber belt driving it. That shaft fails where and how it does by design.
     
  25. Juri

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    #25 Juri, Jan 3, 2011
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    Good point, David. Certainly, matching characteristics of the original metal would be ideal, considering what the most recent post has demonstrated (breaking of the metal inside the coupling cavity of the shaft that remained intact...). The metal could be easily identified and matched (+ slightly exceeding resistance to rotational deformability). One could analyze the metal very easily and even perform a structural scan to detect structural stress defects... Our neighbouring lab does that frequently.
    Cheers.
     

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