Are 365 GT4/BB finally rising? | FerrariChat

Are 365 GT4/BB finally rising?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by abo78, Mar 16, 2011.

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  1. abo78

    abo78 Karting

    Sep 5, 2008
    113
    Denmark
    A 1975 Ferrari 365 GT4/BB with a estimate of 125.000-165.000 $ sold for 220.000 $ at the RM Amelia Island auction! - that must be a record for auction prices!?

    I have long wondered why this car is so undervalued compared to many other Ferraris (Daytona, Dino etc). I love the Dino but in my eyes it is simply ridiculous that the 365 Berlinetta Boxer for a long time have been cheaper than the Dino.... Maybe finally people have started appreciating the BB? - in my eyes the BB is second to none the very best Ferrari buy at the current market value - but maybe it will soon go up to the Daytona!? (where it belongs in my eyes).

    What are your thoughts?

    Best regards
    ABO
     
  2. johnvwatts

    johnvwatts Formula Junior

    Jul 7, 2007
    522
    England
    Full Name:
    John v watts
    Interesting. Definately been undervalued for really what was the last handmade Ferrari with a very important customer base kings/captains of industry when it came out and only 387 made. Got sort of overshadowed by the petrol crisis and the fact that none were made available to magazine testers at the time. Much better looking than a Daytona to. And slightly quicker. My favorite Ferrari.
     
  3. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Onno
    People have been talking about this possible rise for a while, but it hasn't happened yet. The auction result was a good line in the sand but my information over the past 3 years has always been that a good 365bb in the US draws $200k. In the UK, with only 88 rhd cars ever made, funnily enough they don't draw much more than 100k. I think this has something to do with the fact that they are mostly in one country, so there is always a couple for sale (right now a decent one for 75k). In Europe it sits at EUR 160k or so for a good one. I do hope they are about to take off, I own two. :)

    Onno
     
  4. abo78

    abo78 Karting

    Sep 5, 2008
    113
    Denmark
    Thank you for your thoughts and insight Onno. I own one myself, so lets try to "talk them up!" :)

    johnvwatts you are absolutely correct! - also my favorite Ferrari!

    Best regards

    ABO
     
  5. Dazzling

    Dazzling Formula 3

    Nov 18, 2010
    1,133
    Adelaide
    Full Name:
    Darren
    Where is this for sale?
     
  6. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Onno
    DK engineering. I know one of the previous owners quite well, he sold it in 2006. Car has hardly done any miles since. But I have never seen the car myself and I don't know the current owner(s). Obviously I have vested interest in this car. I thought I saw the price somewhere but it is not in the Anamera ad so maybe I'm wrong there.

    Onno

    http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/115501/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=63
     
  7. abo78

    abo78 Karting

    Sep 5, 2008
    113
    Denmark
    The car at DK Enginnering is a RHD. Am I wrong when saying that LHD generally is more expensive? - also when it comes to Boxer.

    Best regards
    ABO
     
  8. Dazzling

    Dazzling Formula 3

    Nov 18, 2010
    1,133
    Adelaide
    Full Name:
    Darren
    ok yeah I did see that but price not listed so I assumed more that 75k?
     
  9. haroonok

    haroonok Formula 3

    Sep 5, 2007
    1,152
    england
    Full Name:
    haroon
    have spoken to DK engineering about the car and they are asking 95k GBP on behalf of the current owner-its a nice car actually,last saw it at a local FOC meeting a couple of years ago.Has been in a few magazine articles down the years and always been looked after.
     
  10. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 1, 2002
    28,029
    Dixie
    Full Name:
    Itamar Ben-Gvir
    The Countach has a rigid pecking order. It is time for the early BB, to distance itself from the other versions, to some degree.
     
  11. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    How is James doing, anyway????
     
  12. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
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    Bubba
    I saw one (with luggage) go at $190K USD five years ago, the early Boxers definately have a following.
     
  13. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 1, 2002
    28,029
    Dixie
    Full Name:
    Itamar Ben-Gvir
    Alan,


    He is good.

    I went to visit him, a few days ago.
     
  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    #14 tazandjan, Mar 16, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
    The thing about the 4.4 liter Boxer, though, was that it was followed quickly by the 5 liter Boxer, which was supposedly a better car. Having owned 17659 for a short period, the 4.4 liters always reminded me of a Dino on steroids, but with a lot bigger bite if you screwed up. Many had 512 upgrades. A good pure one is a treasure. I envy you, Onno.

    I think all the Boxers are way undervalued compared to the Daytonas, but less stuff is likely to break on a Daytona, service is way cheaper ("if for any reason you remove the engine, replace the cam belts"), they have a much more impressive racing history (yes I know about the BB512LMs), and they were the last of the Enzo front-engined berlinettas.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  15. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    33,014
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    Joe Mansion
    I think both the Daytona and the 365 BB are undervalued.
     
  16. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Taz,

    I am curious ... what is the price of a timing chain service on the Daytona?

    I ask, as there have been many concerned posts about the Boxer and that you need to remove the engine to do the cam belts, etc... Personally I do not find that removing the engine on a Boxer a big deal...a non issue really... 6 hours to remove and 6 hours to replace... by one person...and the nice part is that when the engine is out it is actually much easier to clean, detail, and sort out any other things in the engine bay. Is the Daytona timing chain replacement not too expensive? Is a straight forward procedure? Just curious.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  17. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    26,120
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    in a nutshell - after 40 yrs . they all need full attention .... hence the price will reflect a great restored car....imo dead daytons are going for the 200-250k ...its the next 150-200 to do a full restore that breaks the bank. After seeing about half dozen dayton's in person during various stages....a great daytona to enjoy like it was meant to be enjoyed in 1971 is a 400+ car. Therefore, a chain service will not be needed until another restore ;)
     
  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    #18 tazandjan, Mar 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sam- I never replaced mine or had to change cam timing, but did adjust tension. All you did was crank her down until she whistled and then back off a bit. Took about 5 minutes. When I had her, I had a copy of Angelo Wallace's English tranlation of the WSM. I had traded him access to the 365 GT4/BB WSM I had for a copy. That went with the car in 1979/80. The GTB/4 manual also taught you how to build a distributor machine for everything but advance, which I duly built. Amazing how brave you are when in your 20s and the only Ferrari mechanic (right) in Clovis, NM.

    The good old days. The Daytona (14009) was $5K and Dino 02984.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
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  19. Buxton

    Buxton Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2010
    484
    Full Name:
    B Buxton
    I think Daytonas are overvalued and 365BB are undervalued. Daytonas increased a lot from 2004-2007/8 but didn't fall far. Boxers are far more aesthetically pleasing IMHOP
     
  20. BB512 1980

    BB512 1980 Formula 3
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    Jul 1, 2008
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    Pascal
  21. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,101
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    Mel
    Have a look here for indication of F 365 or BBI prices in Europe !

    Off-Topic: VERY interesting 365 at the end of the list....... :-0) ! A Ferrari 365 GT NART Spider ...

    The always coming back problem: you have a price in mind that you think your car is absolutely worth it... and you like to get that sum of money....

    But who on earth will pay that price..... ??
     
  22. Mario Pano

    Mario Pano Formula Junior

    May 24, 2006
    273
    Where ever fun goes
    Full Name:
    Mario
    It makes no sense for an early 365 bb to be worth that much more than a later one.
    I think when the later BBs become old enough maybe three years from now where the end of the BBs build make them thirty year old cars they will be of age and more likely the 365 will be fetching more but since they are so similar they all might be in the same general range.

    The Daytonas should be worth more but not that much more.....considering if you drive one the driving experience on the street pales in comparison to a 365BB.
    I wonder if the BB had a longer racing history ...the street cars being what they are they could have been worth more than the Daytona just for being mid engine one of a kind,race history, twelve cyl, hand made ,and the only mid engine real Ferrari ever.

    Mario
     
  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Mario- I think the F50 and Enzo owners might disagree with that.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  24. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
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    Onno
    #24 JazzyO, Mar 23, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
    Your search doesn't list the BB's. There are 3 for sale on that site, but none in Germany. Highly varying prices.

    http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=btllrqjfjyhk
    http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=bssmtqagb1jo
    http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=bpnonndff2ip

    As for your comment regarding asking price and being out of touch as a seller - there is tug of war between several forces when it comes to sale price. These are:

    1. Ignorance regarding the market on the seller's side
    2. Ignorance regarding the market on the buyer's side
    3. Ignorance regarding the car in question on the seller's side
    4. Ignorance regarding the car in question on the buyer's side
    5. Desperation for the car in question on the seller's side (need to sell)
    6. Desperation for the car in question on the buyer's side (want, want, want)

    In my experience, the rarer and more expensive the car (i.e. the model), the more likely it is that forces 1, 3, and 5 are weaker than 2, 4, and 6. In other words - the seller's advantage. With 365BB's in good condition you're getting into that territory where people know what they have, do not need to sell, and can bide their time. I have personally experienced this when buying my 330GTC. There was not one for sale above 180k Euro on Anamera, but I paid a lot more. Why? Because the car was so much better than other examples I had seen. The seller knew the market very well, and he also knew his car very well, having owned it for 22 years and restored it to perfection.

    The internet is not a true reflection of market price when it comes to rare cars, and the 365BB definitely qualifies as rare. Because it has been underappreciated, and because the US, UK and European markets for these cars are very different, the picture is a bit distorted and hasn't crystallised yet. But good cars will not be sold under EUR150k, more likely above 170k. Still a bargain when you consider they sold for GBP200k in the 1989 boom...

    And don't forget - if you want a 140k car to look like a 200k car, you will spend more than 100k in restoration costs. A full restoration to platinum status will cost you in the region of EUR150k... I know because I'm about to start one.


    Onno
     
  25. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Onno
    In relation to the post above, some comments on these 3 cars:

    The 150k one - seems an honest car, depending on mechanical condition it could be a good buy. It definitely needs a need interior, which would cost 20k if done by the very best. It has original tools, so this could be a nice buy for someone who spends a bit of cash. It is 30k more expensive than it would have been a year ago but it seems this is where prices are heading.

    The 180k one - re-upholstered dash in non-original mouse hair, and non-original leather covering of the seats. It seems to me this was a cloth-seat car where the cloth was covered by leather, as the pattern of the leather fits the layout of the cloth seats. Looks horrible. Non-original front fog lights. Interesting BB luggage, haven't seen that before. ANSA non-original exhaust, Ferrari Classiche won't like that but I personally do. For me, this car needs a new interior and some other corrections to become a great Boxer and thus it is overpriced. It does look like a good car, but needs a bit of work.

    The 220k one. Well, this one looks perfect. It will need work if you are going to actually use it. But this car could well be worth the money. A 1.500km Boxer, those are hard to find. Question is - will you feel bad about using it? It only has low mileage once, and the longer it has it, the more important that becomes. This car has done 42kms per year. Poor thing. I wonder if the paint work is original, it looks a little too flawless for me.

    Onno
     

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