88 TR Cylinders 1-6 No Fuel | FerrariChat

88 TR Cylinders 1-6 No Fuel

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by 302Tim, Oct 3, 2011.

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  1. 302Tim

    302Tim Formula 3

    Jul 2, 2011
    1,182
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Need your help please and apologize in advance for the length. Bought a US 1988.5 TR last month. Runs/drives fantastic--until last week. I have been doing some very minor, non-intrusive (cosmetic) engine bay cleanup, removing paint overspray, excessive rustrproofing gunk, road grime etc. I decided to pull the Jetronic ECU boxes/shelf out so I could clean along the wheel arch. I disconnected the two ECU connectors as well as the two connectors on the "triangle" box aft of the ECUs (all with power off). After wiping down the area and dusting off the ECU's I reinstalled all. Was very, very careful with the ECU boxes, knowing the replacement cost. The connectors did take more fiddling than I would have liked to get them off, mostly me learing how they are retained. Did a little more cleaning then started the engine to confirm I had everything reinstalled correctly.

    Immediately noticed a different tone, idle was down to 900 rpm. Lagging response while gently revving motor. Low power evident, did not try to drive. Shut down and re-checked all the connections. Started again, same response. Checked everything I could see/think of 3 or 4 (OK 5 or 10) more times with no improvement.

    After 3 days of reading every related post, today I tried to isolate what I have induced: I have good spark on all 12 cylinders, verified with a timing light. There is no (raw) fuel smell as I run the motor, exhaust pipes are dry. I checked exhaust manifold temps with a thermal heat gun, manifolds for cylinders 7-9 and 10-12 both read ~175F after a few minutes running, 1-3 and 4-6 both consistently cold at about a steady 70F. I pulled the ECU connectors again and none of the female connectors are recessed or "gapped" and no corrosion, they all look very good. Boxes were not dropped or handled roughly. Male connector "tabs" are all perfect. Same for connections on triangle box. Cleaned all just to be sure with spray electrical contact cleaner, low pressure air dry. I cold-swapped the ECU boxes with no improvement. With engine running, when I disconnect the forward-most ECU connector engine stumbles and drops (by ear) maybe 100 rpm. When I then disconnect the aft ECU connector (front still disconnected), no change, and does not stall motor with both ECUs disconnected. When I disconnect either of the plugs on triangle box, engine stumbles, RPM drops, but also does not stall. When all is reconnected, idle improves, RPM back to ~900, but 1-6 still dead. I can't imagine what I could have done. Did not touch ignition system at all or the rest of fuel system--pumps, accumulators, filters, etc. Electrical connections at themostat were not touched and I visually confirmed they are connected. Admittedly I have not isolated the fuel pump for 1-6 to ensure it is working (both pump fuses are good) and I suppose I could have had a very coincidental pump failure or something else upstream/downstream of the ECUs but that would be one heck of a coincidence. All I disconnected or touched was as outlined above. I don't see any broken grounds or anything else obvious. I was nowhere near the actual fuel distributors (FD I think) ar any of the on-engine wiring or connections. Double checking ignition I also cleaned coil connections on both sides (both coils) and cleaned the two connections under the expansion tank. Didn't get back near the Stribel relay on the triangle box.

    As for the fuel pumps, sometime in the past my fuse panel suffered the normal meltdown at the white connectors and has been repaired with off board (isolated) circuitry/relays for both fuel pumps and the AC relay. Not as clean as the Dave Helms repair and does not address the oil coolers, will do the full DH repair this winter. Both pump fuses are good.

    I definitely don't like the flimsiness of the ECU connectors from the rubber boot to the plastic conduit, and may have damaged when I removed as it takes at least a 45 degree bend to get these clear. Seems like the weakest area I touched while cleaning and most suspect (to me), though I am second guessing now that I see the motor will run without the ECUs connected (on default mapping?). Anyway, I pulled both connectors gently apart to see if there was an obvious broken wire and saw nothing, though I did not dig around much at all. There could still be issues in those connectors.

    Aside from the obvious question (whats wrong?) can you help me understand:
    1) Does each fuel pump singularly feed only one bank of cylinders? I think so--please confirm
    2) Does the forward ECU run/tune cylinders 7-12 and the aft 1-6?
    3) Can a bad/broken connection on either of the ECU connectors cause the entire bank not to run?

    I have some notes from Steve Magnusson on performing an EM Pressure Actuator Coil Resistance test, as well as well as checking for 12V at the water thermoswitch which I will do when I get home tonight. Beyond that I am at a loss, perplexed to say the least. 30 years of Air Force fighter maintenance taught me not to "fix" things that aren't broken but my OCD will not let me live with a dirty engine compartment. Oh, and no need to point out what a dumb a*s I am, my wife and two children beat you to it.

    I truly appreciate any/all help you guys can provide.
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,141
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #2 Steve Magnusson, Oct 3, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
    Wow -- you took a huge risk IMO unplugging/plugging the injection ECUs with the engine running -- so don't do that! ;) The reason that you didn't get much of a change is that the injection ECUs only add a little nominal richness (via the EHA) to the basic mixture setting (although I would guess that your mixture screws are set a little to the rich side). They have nothing to do with running the fuel pumps.

    For fuel pump operation diagnosis, remove each fuel pump relay and apply a jumper wire from terminal 30 to terminal 87 in the relay socket as shown in this jpeg:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    the corresponding fuel pump should run (even with the key "off") -- and the labeling on the fuse-relay panel is a little confusing -- the fuel pump relay marked "RH side" is for the fuel pump mounted on the RH side of the chassis, but it actually serves the 7-12 LH bank, and vice-versa. Alternatively, you could (safely) unplug each fuel pump relay one at a time while the engine is running to (intentionally) disable each bank.

    I actually hope that one of your fuel pumps doesn't run, because, if the fuel pump does run, but there's no fuel delivery, that's a bad sign for the FD (or maybe the pressure regulator).

    For your Questions:

    1 - yes
    2 - yes
    3 - no -- as mentioned, if an injection ECU were dead, that bank would only run/stumble a little lean if the manual mixture adjustment was correct, and the corresponding bank would continue to run fine if the manual mixture screw is (wrongly) tweaked to the rich side.
     
  3. Whisky

    Whisky Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 27, 2006
    25,531
    Upper Great Plains
    Full Name:
    The original Fernando
    That's WRONG.

    You are LEARNING so if and when you have future problems you will have a helluva lot better understanding how to troubleshoot this.
    Better to learn now as opposed to being stuck on the side of the road.

    If you wanted a car that never had issues, you'd have a Honda.
     
  4. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

    Mar 21, 2008
    2,987
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    Robbie
    #4 Mr.Chairman, Oct 3, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
    Follow Steves instructions but I would like to add something.. Did you unplug your 02 sensors while you were cleaning up. Make sure you did not mix up the plugs.. I also want you to check the plugs under the ignition coil.. Concentrate on the right hand side 1-6 bank - the left hand side is for the 7-12 bank and if those connections where faulty she would not even run.. She would fire then run very rough and then stall. Those plugs are prone to be a problem.. Check all your grounds as well. Make sure they are clean and fastened properly. Stay away from any plug grease - it will cause a whole slew of new issues. Honestly this is a great time to consider the gold connector kit from Dave Helms.. The kit is complete and you will be changing every single connector in the engine bay harness.. Its sound to me that you have a bad connection somewhere and need to figure out where. The gold kit has transformed my car. Something to consider once you figure out what is going on. Take your time and be thorough and try do avoid unplugging and plugging your ecus while engine is running..

    R
     
  5. 302Tim

    302Tim Formula 3

    Jul 2, 2011
    1,182
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Shouldn't be a shock to anyone but Steve called it right. My LH fuel pump was not operating. Upon further inspection my fuse panel has had 3 circuits repaired but it was AC and the two water radiator fans, not the fuel pumps as I had thought (still figuring out what has been done to the car for the last 23 years). Failure mode was the standard burnt white connectors and gapped fingers on the female connectors. I was able to pinch the fingers closed and reseat the white connectors, pump runs fine (for) now, back to a TR vs. a Fiero. The other pump wire is similarly damaged. This will accelerate my Winter project to upgrade the fuse panel. My car has almost 40K miles and as mentioned 3 of the 6 common failed circuits have been repaired so I suspect those pump connectors have been burned for awhile and the LF pump connection finally let go last week. The PO(s) likely only wanted to address the issues as they arose, I'll be more proactive.

    Also, thanks Mr. Chairman for your insight as well, I have cleaned and checked those additional connections as recommended. Gold connector kit is on the list, I plan to tackle during my next major when everything is really accessible. If I continue to have problems (unlikely I think) I will also accelerate the connector swap.

    So in the end it did turn out to be a big coincidence the pump connection failed when I was cleaning around the ECUs, but it serves to remind us not to take anything for granted. I came out fairly unscathed, could have been big $$ as Steve mentioned.

    Thanks for your help.
     
  6. stavri

    stavri Karting

    Jul 20, 2006
    95
    Bucks County, PA
    Steve,
    I have a similar problem. Working on a friends 1989 testa rosa. Had #20 fuse blow. Pulled and checked relays. Ok. Bypassed relays #30 to # 87 and one operates the pump and the other bank doesn't. On that relay I have no power to #30. Where does this power come from? The tacometric relay? Obviously my next step is to pull the fuse panel and inspect the connections on the back.
    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,141
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    If this is a US version 89 TR, those fuel pump relay sockets are wired the other way around (compared to the early euro schematic in the TR WSM): +12V should always be present on the 87 terminal of the relay sockets, and terminal 30 goes to the fuel pump motor via the y white connector. If you have +12V on the 87 terminals in the relay sockets, but the corresponding fuel pump doesn't run with the 30-to-87 jumper in place = either bad connection/frazzled terminal/damaged PCBA in the y white connector area, bad connection at fuel pump motor, or bad fuel pump motor.
     
  8. stavri

    stavri Karting

    Jul 20, 2006
    95
    Bucks County, PA
    Then one fp# 87 has no power. When i jump it to the other fp relay socket the pump works. So Both pumps work . Will investigate socket and connection on back of that relay and report back.
    Thanks.
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,141
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Thanks for the feedback so far -- and that is the first report here of that fault (no +12V power on terminal 87) as a cause of "TR fuel pump not working" AFAIK. The female terminal in the relay socket is directly soldered to the PCB trace, but, perhaps a poor connection between the male relay tab and the female terminal could generate enough I^2*R heat to damage the nearby trace/soldering on the PCB (via conduction). Look forward to seeing what you find...
     
  10. sailquik

    sailquik Formula 3

    Feb 27, 2006
    1,645
    In a temperate zone
    Full Name:
    Charlie
    Any update on what caused this? I have the same issue - no 12VDC on LHFP #87

    Jumping from RHFP #87 will get LHFP to work.

    Bad fusebox PCB? feels spongy and light charring on A/C ('k' Connector) and LH Water Fan ('j' connector) (not on the plastic connectors themselves, but on the backside of PCB).
     
  11. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,930
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    remove the relais for LHFP and jump on this socket 87 and 15. if pump then works change both relais to see if then the RHFP will not work. if still the LHFP not work then check if you have 12 V plus on 87 or on 15. if so then check if you have ground on 65 or 86 and 12 V plus also on 85 or 86 when the eninge is running
     

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