Anybody know why 365 Boxer sold cheap at RM Paris?

gbutler · Feb 5, 2014

I just saw that a 365 GT4/BB sold for 167.5k EUR at RM Paris. Applying typical 10% buyer premium plus converting EUR to USD yields a final price right around 250k USD. This seems 50 to 100k lower than what I thought market was on these cars. The only thing I noticed was the car was RHD, so maybe that impacted the result. Does anyone know anything about this particular sale? Sorry I do not have the SSN, but anyone go to auction or has anyone seen the actual car that sold? Is their a story behind it which would lead to what I think is a sub-market price?

Also, looks like the dino GT was a no-sale at the same RM Paris auction and high bid was only 3k EUR more than the Boxer, definetly lower than market for a dino.

dwhite · Feb 5, 2014

From the pictures the car looks like it need lots of TLC and there is no mention of service. I do like the 29,560 KLMs amazining how few are ever driven, but show so much wear ;-).

I would say someone bought it to do a total restoration and they will be in way over $350K

Cobraownr · Feb 5, 2014

Chassis #18159. RM website (link below) says the sale price was 187,600 Euros = $253,808.

This bought:

Right hand drive.
Incorrect exhaust system.
Transaxle not original to the car.
Paint not original color.
Hasn't been driven in 25 years. Good luck playing Vintage Ferrari Roulette recommissioning this one. Maybe you'll win, maybe you won't. Minimum of engine out major. Maybe R&R transaxle R&R, rebuild carbs, radiator?

<http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1064431>

samsaprunoff · Feb 6, 2014

Good day All,

Just adding documentation...

Cheers,

Sam

1974 Ferrari 365BB Chassis 18159
Color: Red Exterior with No Boxer trim with Tan Interior
Mileage: 29571
Location: Rm Auction, Paris
VIN:
Chassis: 18159
Sold: 187.6K Euro - 2014-02-05

Chassis no. 18159
Engine no. F102A00000210
Body no. 190
Gearbox no. F102AB N 43

380 bhp, 4,390 cc DOHC horizontally opposed 12-cylinder engine, four Weber triple-choke carburettors, five-speed manual gearbox in the rear transaxle, four-wheel independent suspension with unequal length A-arms, coil springs, and anti-roll bars, twin coil springs at the rear, and four-wheel hydraulic disc brakes. Wheelbase: 2,500 mm

A landmark Ferrari; the first road going flat 12-cylinder Boxer
Ferraris last entirely hand-built production car
Original engine; an outstanding restoration opportunity

Ferraris stunning 365 GT4 Berlinetta Boxer debuted at Turin in 1971, and it was the companys first road going model with a mid-mounted, flat 12-cylinder engine, which was subsequently nicknamed the Boxer, for its opposing pistons. The exotic design was derived from the companys three-litre Formula One car, and it took two years to bring it to production. It was finally launched in late 1973, as a 1974 model, and only 387 were built in the following three years. Road & Track hit 175 mph during a road test in 1975, allowing it to dub the original Boxer the fastest road car weve ever tested.

The BB series marked Ferraris last entirely hand-built production car. As with numerous supercars of its era, astute collectors prefer the earliest versions above all variants, as their purity of design is striking.

The car offered here was originally delivered through Australian Ferrari importer Lowe in October 1974, and it was finished in Argento with Beige hides. After remaining Down Under for 14 years, it was sold to a British buyer, and a year later, it was put away. It has recently emerged from its dry storage, where it had remained since 1989, and it will consequently require a re-commissioning before being able to take to the road again. The car has remained in solid original condition, with the exception of a correct replacement gearbox and being refinished in Rosso Corsa in 1988, and it still retains its original interior, body, and engine. It would be an outstanding car to restore, and when completed, it will be amongst the first and finest of its kind on concours fields.

The former British owner is quoted as saying that it was a fast and excellent driving car and, in keeping with the magazines claims, that he once drove it at 150 mph and still had much power left. Whether or not to test Road & Tracks astonishing 175 mph figure is up to the new owner.
Click to expand...

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375+ · Feb 6, 2014

Cobraownr said: ↑

Chassis #18159. RM website (link below) says the sale price was 187,600 Euros = $253,808.

This bought:

Right hand drive.
Incorrect exhaust system.
Transaxle not original to the car.
Paint not original color.
Hasn't been driven in 25 years. Good luck playing Vintage Ferrari Roulette recommissioning this one. Maybe you'll win, maybe you won't. Minimum of engine out major. Maybe R&R transaxle R&R, rebuild carbs, radiator?

<http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1064431>
Click to expand...

Also has 512 rear wheels.

BigTex · Feb 6, 2014

Good bones though, amazing tool kit!!!!

Lots of details to fix, but maybe not rusted or bent???
Hopefully....

boxerman · Feb 6, 2014

They paid 230K UsD for the car, has not run in 25 years. Its more than likely going to need a significant-full engine rebuild/carbs hoses etc. Suspension redone, brakes redone. Body looks Ok and inetrior good. The mechnaical bill sounds like 50-80K, but who knows could be 100k.

So what is a very good running 365 Boxer with wrong tranny and wheels worth? I guess you can change the wheels. If the tranny is wrong and that is an issue figure another not less that 25-30k for a365 tranny if you can find one. So to be made perfect it sounds like this car is going to be all of 300-350K. I guess Boxer prices are on the move.

geno berns · Feb 6, 2014

That's a good thing. A $10K good thing...

375+ said: ↑

Also has 512 rear wheels.
Click to expand...

geno berns · Feb 6, 2014

If the new owner can get the car restored for $100K than the car will be worth $350K once doen. Currently a great example is worth that so where is the downside?

dwhite said: ↑

From the pictures the car looks like it need lots of TLC and there is no mention of service. I do like the 29,560 KLMs amazining how few are ever driven, but show so much wear ;-).

I would say someone bought it to do a total restoration and they will be in way over $350K
Click to expand...

rovexienus · Feb 7, 2014

The steering wheel looks like it has an additional layer of leather on top of the original one.

dwhite · Feb 7, 2014

geno berns said: ↑

If the new owner can get the car restored for $100K than the car will be worth $350K once doen. Currently a great example is worth that so where is the downside?
Click to expand...

Who said downside. I said it will be $350ish after things are done, which is way more than the $260ish gbutler is so concerned about. gbutler is the one who is so concerned about prices, not me he has posted several threads about the state of Boxer prices. I'm concerned when the weather will be better in the North East so I can get my cars out of storage for some exercise and fun.

Paying $300- $350 for a 365 BB is where the current market is, who knows where it is in 5, 10 or 20 years. . . No one. Could be up could be down.

toto70_0 · Feb 8, 2014

It is not a wrong gearbox, it is a factory replacement, and the specialists know that the first generation gearboxes for 365 boxers are very weak.

waterzzzz · Feb 10, 2014

dwhite said: ↑

Who said downside. I said it will be $350ish after things are done, which is way more than the $260ish gbutler is so concerned about. gbutler is the one who is so concerned about prices, not me he has posted several threads about the state of Boxer prices. I'm concerned when the weather will be better in the North East so I can get my cars out of storage for some exercise and fun.

Paying $300- $350 for a 365 BB is where the current market is, who knows where it is in 5, 10 or 20 years. . . No one. Could be up could be down.
Click to expand...

Most likely market will be UP for the 365 GT4 BB. (slightly biased cause I own one (-; Look at how relatively few were made-- and how undervalued they have been for so long-- compared to earlier Ferraris. Most likely they will be over 500 K in 4 years.
Biggest reason in my opinion why the RM Paris Boxer was relatively cheap- three words -- Right Hand Drive. This takes a whole segment of potential buyers out of the market if you go to sell it some day. For instance, for most Italian collectors this is a huge No No. Cheers!

dwhite · Feb 11, 2014

There was a RHD car which sold late last year for a big number like $360K. I believe it added to the value as they are very rare and if you happen to live in UK or other places where you drive on the other side of the road it is more appreciated. JMO and others as well.

While I tend to agree Boxers should go up in value, still no one trully knows where they will be in 5 years. Ask anyone who bought anything in 2007.

samsaprunoff · Sep 11, 2014

Good day All,

Looks like the car is now for sale in the UK... either outright for 249995 GBP ... or you can pay to have it restored by this firm...

Cheers,

Sam

Ferrari 365 GT4 Berlinetta Boxer - Full Restoration | eBay

Ferraris stunning 365 GT4 Berlinetta Boxer debuted at Turin in 1971, and it was the companys first road going model with a mid-mounted, flat 12-cylinder engine, which was subsequently nicknamed the Boxer, for its opposing pistons.

The exotic design was derived from the companys three litre Formula One car, and it took two years to bring it to production. It was finally launched in late 1973, as a 1974 model, and only 387 were built in the following three years.
Road & Track hit 175 mph during a road test in 1975, allowing it to dub the original Boxer the fastest road car weve ever tested.

The BB series marked Ferraris last entirely hand-built production car. As with numerous supercars of its era, astute collectors prefer the earliest versions above all variants, as their purity of design is striking.

The car offered here was originally delivered through Australian Ferrari importer Lowe in October 1974, and it was finished in Argento with Beige hides.
After remaining Down Under for 14 years, it was sold to a British buyer, and a year later, it was put away.
It has recently emerged from its dry storage, where it had remained since 1989, and it will be fully restored by our team before being able to take to the road again.
The car has remained in solid original condition, with the exception of a correct replacement gearbox and being refinished in Rosso Corsa in 1988, and it still retains its original interior, body, and engine.

It will be an outstanding car to restore, and when completed, it will be amongst the first and finest of its kind on concours fields.

The former British owner is quoted as saying that it was a fast and excellent driving car and, in keeping with the magazines claims, that he once drove it at 150 mph and still had much power left. Whether or not to test Road & Tracks astonishing 175 mph figure is up to the new owner.

This car us currently at our showroom and can be viewed, although restoration work will commence soon.

We have a number of different price options for this car, explained below:

We are going to do a full, nut & bolt restoration on this car and it will be concours condition when we finish. We expect the process to take 8 - 12 months.

As you know, classic Ferrari values are rocketing, and we believe this car will be a £500k car in a few years.

The options to purchase are:

1. Buy as it is now, as a restoration project. The cost to buy now is £249,995.

2. Buy it now, as a completed car. The cost to buy now is £309,995. We would require this payment up front.

3. Buy it now, as a completed car. It can be bought now by paying on a payment plan. The cost would be £359,995, with £50,000 payable every 1/4.

If it is still for sale when it is completed, we expect it to be worth over £400,000 and will be advertised as such. So if someone was to buy now, they are buying an appreciating asset. One that can be enjoyed and used when completed.
Click to expand...

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4right · Sep 12, 2014

Odd payment plan for buy it now if you want to make payments. I guess that they are building in interest to reach the 359,000 price and then you make payments. Who would ever do that, what if you wanted to pay the car off early, you are still paying interest over the entire term.

turbo-joe · Sep 13, 2014

250.000 GBP are about 400.000 US $ if I count right?
this would be a proudly price, but it is a RHD, so very rare

RJR89 · Sep 13, 2014

RHD.

grahamdodridge · Sep 1, 2015

I have SN18159 and I now have a significant file on the car from the early years, but am trying to fill in a big gap. The car was originally sold in Australia and was repatriated to the UK in 1989, since when it was apparently held in storage. Owner info at this point is somewhat scarce. If anyone is able to enlighten me I would be most grateful. Currently under full resto, completing Dec 2015!

BigTex · Sep 4, 2015

Congrats on landing that machine, and welcome to the Forum.

Maybe a Private Message, or an email to our member Marcel Massini, would turn up the historical ownership data.

He makes a career out of tracking that info.

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