Chattering pignons in neutral, clutch up. Normal? | FerrariChat

Chattering pignons in neutral, clutch up. Normal?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by alexwagner, Sep 22, 2014.

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  1. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2013
    343
    Paris, France
    Full Name:
    Alex Wagner
    #1 alexwagner, Sep 22, 2014
    I dropped the 512 TR off this morning at a Ferrari specialist for my Nouvalari sports exhaust to be fitted.

    They reckon there is an abnormal and possibly worrying noise...

    When stationnary, with the clutch depressed, the gearbox is silent. Then, with the clutch raised in neutral, there is a light but clearly audible sound of chattering pignons.

    That noise is not new, and since it sounds just like a GT3 Porsche (caused by their lightweight flywheel) in neutral with the clutch raised, I thought it was perfectly normal.

    My specialist says it is not normal. What do you think?

    They reckon something is noisy in the cascade of 3 pignons that brings the drive down from the crankshaft to the gearbox below it.

    First step: he's going to remove the clutch bell housing to see what's going on. This is easy while the silencer is off. He will take photos if there is anything strange.

    If it is an issue with the cascade of pignons, I would guess that it doesn't require removing the engine?

    Might this be a good time to fit the forged diff casing? I would guess not, as the engine must come out for that I think...

    Thanks for your advice.
     
  2. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,378
    The Cold North
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    Tom
    #2 tbakowsky, Sep 22, 2014
    release bearing?
     
  3. sherrillt

    sherrillt Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 1, 2009
    1,074
    Northern Virginia
    #3 sherrillt, Sep 22, 2014
    Not normal - if it is, my car does not do it and is abnormal.
     
  4. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    #4 vincenzo, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The release would make noise when the clutch is depressed.

    Clutch out means that the gears are moving - the noise is in a gear or bearing.

    First things first - change the oil and screen the gear oil for debris. If you find no debris, and the gearbox noise is minimal - I'd say ignore it - IF - the noise is heard while stationary.

    If you find debris, or if the gearbox is obviously noisy, then tear into it.

    When they tell you it is in the 'easy to get to' gears 3/4/5 it sounds like they may be telling you the 'easy' part just to gain your commitment. Once they find nothing there, it will be much easier to sell you an entire tear down. Get a second opinion before you commit to anything. Make them logically tell you WHY they think it is gears 3/4/5 (stethoscope?).

    Good luck,
    Vincenzo
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2013
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    Paris, France
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    Alex Wagner
    #5 alexwagner, Sep 22, 2014
    Thanks for your useful comments.

    The noise is only audible in neutral and at idle - just like a Porsche GT3. When moving, even very slowly, there is no gearbox noise.

    My mechanic has taken off the bell housing and reports:
    - worn release bearing
    - oil leak into the clutch housing (at minimum a duff or poorly seated oil seal)
    - some fine metal shavings in the gearbox oil... which require opening the gearbox for inspection! :-(

    I bought the car last month, fresh from a big cambelt service at Ferrari (invoice on file for 8700€, which included a new A/C compressor).

    I am covered by a engine + gearbox + diff waranty. Just as well!

    I expect to be having the car transported from the independant specialist, where it is now, to Ferrari Paris (Pozzi). So I will get a 2nd opinion from them as a matter of course.

    The independant specialist knew from the start that I would have the car transported to Ferrari in case of a gearbox issue, so they had no incentive to get a commitment out of me.

    If indeed the engine+gearbox have to come out, then I plan to fit the Forza forged diff carrier and heavy-duty quil shaft, as a matter of preventive maintenance.

    What a frustrating pain, as I was really looking forward to enjoying the car... I've only had it for a month! :-(
     
  6. 512man

    512man Formula Junior

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    #6 512man, Sep 22, 2014
    Sad to hear,but fine it happend with in the waranty...
     
  7. 512man

    512man Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2014
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    #7 512man, Sep 22, 2014
    Forgot...God luck.
     
  8. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2013
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    #8 alexwagner, Sep 22, 2014
    About fitting the Forza components diff carrier and quil shaft will:
    - Will a Ferrari main dealer refuse to fit non-original (albeit reinforced) parts?
    - Will fitting non-orginal parts compromise my waranty?

    I will of course enquire, but I wondered if you had experience.
     
  9. 512man

    512man Formula Junior

    Jun 27, 2014
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    #9 512man, Sep 22, 2014
    No experience about it,but if you are within a waranty i Think they want to use oem parts.
    But as you said...talk to them.This car is 22 years,not a new one.God luck.
     
  10. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    #10 166&456, Sep 22, 2014
    I have a BMW with a Getrag 265 gearbox that does this, noisy in neutral because the box uses bearings with brass cages. Which are strong as hell but it can make quite a racket at idle, especially if the engine runs a little rough.

    Which brings me to the other part you may want to check, if the engine is running not as evenly as it should, the box can become more noisy too.
     
  11. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    #11 turbo-joe, Sep 22, 2014
    an official F dealer would only use OEM parts, if still available, because of the warranty he has to give
    so if he would put in not OEM parts he is responsible for future failures and because of this he will not put in not original parts.

    but may be you can make an agreement with him:
    if he put in an other diff and an other shaft for this he has not to give any warranty, but for all the other work what is to do.

    but first of all: as I see it only the main gearbox ( so the transmission from the clutch to the gearbox ) is/was making noises in idle. so this then only could be a small work to replace the 6 bearings, not such a big job.


    this bearing also would make noises when not in idle or neutral

    this also could come from the slave cylinder, so check if it is brake fluid or gearbox oil

    where do you drained the oil? from the rear or the main oil plug?
    a little metal shavings in yellow/gold is normal. this comes from the synchro-rings. so use a magnet and see if this shavings will go to the magnet. if so, then the gearbox has to come out. if not, then it is really not dangerous as long as you can shift clearly without hearing noises.

    read exactly the conditions: soemtimes they reduce the warranty only to the parts, so you pay the labor, or otherwise. also sometijmes it depends on how many kilometers the cars has. for each 10.000 km they reduce the to pay amount by 10 %.

    you bought the car from F paris ( pozzi )?


    the best you could do


    you are really right. so sorry for you. same happened to me with my car when I bought it. so after the independent specialist ( the court appopinted him ) made a repair estimation I decided to do this job by myself after the seller denied to let this job do. after finishing all I got from the seller about 60 % of the complete failure. sure, he had not payed voluntarily, I had to go to court. but so I had payed then all the material. but it is /was really sad.

    if you need more advice you may PM me

    good luck
     
  12. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

    Mar 21, 2008
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    #12 Mr.Chairman, Sep 22, 2014
    If the dealer is going to fix under warranty see if they put the lastest upgraded diff carrier in. The one placed in the late 94 512TR or 512M.. If so that would be a win win brother.. Having a car with the oem factory upgraded diff.. The latest diff would suffice and would put the diff issue to bed.. One of the main reasons why the alternate diff is utilized is cost on top of durability - but oem latest diff.. does not get any better then that my friend. If I had unlimited funds I would opt for the late 94 512/512M diff as well as factory quil shaft.. Just my opinion.. Getting the gear box/diff sorted on warranty is a big plus.. if it goes that way..

    R
     
  13. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2013
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    Alex Wagner
    #13 alexwagner, Sep 23, 2014
    Sure I agree, the advantage of Forza components over OEM uprated parts is the lower price.

    And unless the diff carrier has brocken, which is unlikely, then I will have to pay for the diff carrier and quil shaft myself...
     
  14. alexwagner

    alexwagner Formula Junior

    Aug 31, 2013
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    Alex Wagner
    #14 alexwagner, Feb 11, 2015
    I thought I would update this thread to share the conclusion:

    Ferrari Monaco (Scuderia Monte Carlo) diagnosed a worn bearing in the transfer box (pinions that transfer drive down from crank to gearbox).

    I hired an expert to confirm this and oversee the subsequent repairs.

    An oil analysis confirmed that the gearbox oil was within normal tolerances and did not have excessive metal particles.

    Ferrari changed the worn bearing and, while they were in there, preventatively changed various other ball bearings and roller bearings and oil seals.

    The grumbling noise that I had in neutral at idle has been cured (so it was indeed the transfer box bearing).

    Other than the initial back and forth between the waranty company (who refused to pay, due do this being a condition predating the start of the contract) and Ferrari (who stept in to repair without charge, seeing as I'd very recently bought the car from them), I was happy with the service I got.

    :)
     

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