New Engine/Gearbox Numbers Reassignment

No, after the numbers matching era, the engine SNs started over when a new engine family was introduced (not by year -- but maybe on the newer models they do that - I've no information). Also, I don't think that you can say more than a higher engine serial number in the sequence is made after a lower serial number in time -- i.e., it didn't just go 1, 2, 3... perfectly within in each engine family. My F113A040 engine (US model year 1991) has serial number 25188 so that 1988 F113A040 serial number looks reasonable IMO.

 

Random?

There could even be other conventions that were in the food chain at other times - e.g., across some models, sequential for all model production from a single foundry, etc.. Without knowing the exact "rules" in place at any time (and the exceptions that they made), I'd still say the order of the SNs within any engine family should increase with time/year, but that's about it. You'll have to add another column to your excel file

 

could it be that the engine numbers continuous are raising for all engines, so it does not matter if a 12 cylinder or 8 cylinder engine is produced? every engine gets the own number so no number ( serial ) could be twice then?
Only idea from me

 

Not sure if it helps Carbon, but this is what I posted on my TR website:

"All Testarossa engines have a 5-digit engine number. Each engine type has its own numbering, always starting from the beginning (00001). All Testarossas with a serialnumber lower than s/n 75xxx, will have an enginenumber starting with "00" (so: 00xxx). Near s/n 75700, there is a ‘jump’ in the numbers and from that moment, all engine numbers will be like ‘1xxxx’ or even '2xxxx'. "

 

Hey Carbon, I have some information that may help or make things worse based on my ability to organize what I have so bare with me this may get lengthy.
I will start with info I have on a few 512TRs;
#91549, eng. no. ? , assm. no. 8511
#91661, eng. no. 29093, assm. no. ?
#91741, eng. no. 29173, assm. no. 8827
The difference between the 2nd and 3rd serial nos. is 80 units also the same difference between the engine nos. = 80 units. Which would lead you to believe that all 512TRs would have "sequential" mating of Serial no. with engine no. So the engine no. for 91549 would be 28981?
The opposite part of that theory is the assembly no. difference, between 8511 and 8827=316 this doesn't make sense the difference 91549 and 91741 is 192.
Another problem with the assembly no. that I have found, the parts book on the 512 shows that the "testarossa" script is not on the engine cover after assembly no. 11516. This script is only on 1992 cars from what I can find in pictures of cars for sale, the last '92 serial no. I found was #93418 it has "testarossa" on the cover. The first '93 serial no. I have is #94073 it did not have the script on the engine cover. The problem being, difference between 8827 and 11516 is 2689, they only built 2261 512TRs from '91-'94.
As was stated above the engine no. seems to change with the series of engines. I think this could be applied to the gear box also. My gearbox no. is 93, my car is an early 512TR(91741 above) I have verified copies of about 140 1992 512 serial nos. the earliest being #89738 relating my car to that number I could put my car around the 93rd built. If that were correct the gear box number could tell a person what car number they owned, i.e.; 1 thru 2261 who ever has no. 2261 on their gearbox has the last 512TR built?(might have to take in consideration the 512Ms since they are a similar unit). The parts book gives some clues on this, it uses gear box numbers to denote changes on later cars, i.e.; no. 1749 is mentioned for a change that occurred as are nos. 1102, 1135, 1512. Ferrari parts books are full of running change info using engine nos. and assembly nos. as reference points. This could a lot of help deciphering reasoning and use of numbers.
An additional note as added information; I owned a 348SS, serial no. 94269, assm. no. 18405, engine no. 32135 this car was built in June of 1992. The engine no. is around the numbers used for the 512TRs built using the serial numbers in the 94… range.
Sorry for the long post, I will stop here for now and read thru this to see if need to edit it. I have other info and thoughts but I'm tired of typing

 

Yes it can, Ive put an 88 and a 90 gearbox on a 512M engine, TR is the same of course.

 

Hi,
I have some input on this...

I don't think it's luck, the differences in engine number/VIN are relatable for the most part but I wouldn't expect it to be perfect as there 4-5 vehicle models and engine types being manufactured at the same time. There will always be issues where engines fail or they may have pulled a bunch of engines for warranty work etc.
I look at Urbans' Ferrari S/N manual for info. The serial number is global across all models of Ferrari, holes in the sequence are either unallocated or unrecorded cars I guess.
You referred to 80 512TRs but there are only around 14 512TR+TR in the S/N range 91661-91741 so I think you mean't 80 Ferraris.

I own 91949, the badge on the engine lid was removed early in the life of the car along with some other minor changes for europe. It is a USA spec car that was originally delivered to Italy (a very early 512TR), then Switzerland, then exported to Canada 10 years ago and now in the USA (it took 22 years but it eventually made it!). I've researched the history with some kind help from Marcel.

There are five 512TR plus five TR recorded between S/N 90871 to 90927 (see p415-416), so 10 cars difference and a difference of 9 in the gearbox sequence is pretty good. I think you now have your answer regarding the use of gearbox type in the early 512TR....
There are also some unrecorded S/N in the book so there could be more 512TR or TR in this range (but probably unlikely).

Agree.... and with respect to early 512TR I believe that;
1. S/N and assembly numbers are global.
2. Gearbox numbers are more or less sequential with TR+512TR production until the new gearbox arrived on the 512TR.
3. Engine numbers are global except some very early 512TR which started with a very low number.
4. Chassis numbers, which I don't see discussed are easy to find stamped on the chassis rail directly below the assembly number plate and are sequential I believe. These are more useful than the VIN IMHO.

To verify a car, I think you can relate the S/N to the engine and assembly number sequence then look at the difference in the number of 512TR+TR in the S/N manual to get the chassis and gearbox number difference and extrapolate. At least this is what I've been doing and seems to work for the most part.
In reality I looked at relatively few cars plus info I found here on fchat along with photos from cars for sale so could be wrong.
Andrew

 

The chassis number I'm referring to here might be better called a frame number, there is also probably a different body number which might be found inside the door panels, for example.
I'm not sure if these are supposed to be the same? (Carbon referred to a body number earlier)

 

Could there be gaps in the sequence for prototyping, crash tests, various country administrative validation, etc? Just a thought.

One thing I know for sure Dir having experienced it when I moved to Europe and Ferrari inspected the car before giving me the paperwork for registration, the have kept track of all gearbox/chassis/etc. serial numbers, and the KNOW what chassis got what gearbox, etc. They verified my numbers and told me they ask matched the factory records. The technician even told be that they have "secret" numbers hidden here and there, very hard to reach, that allows them to make sure none of the main numbers were intentionally (fraud) modified.

 

The hidden numbers they may be referring to could be the matching numbers they stamp on the heads and valve covers because the covers are machined on the heads for the end seals. Also the block halves have sequence numbers that match the timing case number. None of the numbers correlate with the engine serial number but if all these numbers were recorded by ferrari (sounds like they are) then it would be next to impossible to duplicate.

 

Apologies for all the typos, I wrote this on my phone real quick. (corrected version in the quote above)

 

Regarding the "testarossa" badge on top of the engine lid of the 512 TR: It was not replaced by a different badge, but it was simply removed. This change is documented in official publications and happened at assembly number 11516. So, it should be quite clear which cars originally had it or not.

Regarding the last part about Canadian cars: in some cases, it CAN be seen by looking at the VIN.
512 TR: ZFFLG40A for USA versions and ZFFLM40A for Canadian versions.
Testarossa: ZFFSG17A for USA versions and ZFFSM17A for Canadian versions.

(Early Testarossas made for the North American market had ZFFSA17A, so at that time probably no difference between USA and Canada regarding the VIN).