Hey everyone! So, I wash my Testarossa tonight. Same as always, except I do get a lot of water on top of the engine near the starter, in the depressions on top of the block. I start the car and it idles fine. In the meantime I get my leaf blower and blow out the water on top of the engine. Still idling fine the whole time. I put away my tools, etc, idling for a total of about 30 mins nonstop, heated up, fans running etc. All of a sudden the rpms go waaaay down and I start hearing a whirring sound. I turn off the car and still hear the whirring. I take the key out of the ignition and STILL hear it. Long story short, I determine that the starter is engaged and actively turning over the engine! It whirs for a few mins while I'm trying to figure out the problem. Finally, the only way to get it to stop is to disconnect the (pretty hot) battery cable. Soooooo, obviously the positive battery cable runs back to the starter, but what are everyone's thoughts on how it kept engaged and actively turning over the engine when the key was completely out of the ignition? I had the starter and solenoid rebuilt last year at the local F dealer, and they also put in an additional relay to address those starter issues I've seen around here. I can post pics of the wiring setup if that helps, just wondering if anyone knows what can cause a short like what I experienced? I would think some water got somewhere it shouldn't have but the weird part about that was that it was idling for a good 30 mins before anything happened (ie, the water should have evaporated?) Thanks, as always! Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
on the left side rear under the expansion tank there is a 8 or 9 connection plug from the engine to the car. have a look there if it is dry. use pressured air to put the water away and use some WD40 at the connection. what "pretty hot wire" from the starter you disconnected? the 30 coming from the battery or the smal one coming from the ignition key? why you not shut off the main switch in the front right? but also may be when you start today is is ok again because the water is away??
But my first diagnostic question would have been.....what is the signal voltage on the trigger wire at the starter? Why are these mechanics adding a starter relay? What if these starter relays are taking a small input (let's say 2v) that does not usually engage the starter ......but with the new relay you now get a full 12v signal that will now cook your starter?
+1 This is the downside to adding the extra relay to the start command operation - if it fails closed, or it gets closed for another reason = the starter engages and always runs. Also, the relay type typically used is not meant for being placed in the environment of an engine compartment (heat/water exposure). You are lucky that it happened at idle -- if it happens at higher RPM = the ring gear (and starter pinion gear) gets torn up.
A simple lamp/bulb OR a noise making item (windshieldwashermotor in my case) will show if there is a PLUS to engage relay and/or starter. Did you disconnect the relay ? Find the plus. It may be that relais, the connector Romano mentionnes or .... it may be a coocked Fuse board But very simple to determine where the power comes from; do the tests (and tell us what you find). Remember, unless solved completely IT WILL COME BACK ! Tim TF308 meant this thread I think ......
Cool, thanks for the tips guys! I'll start the teardown today. On, and the cable I disconnected was the negative cable at the battery itself. Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
Ok, disassembled, and everything looks... eerily ok? I did get a quick whiff of that burned plastic smell when I started disassembling the top end of the engine compartment but it appears as though the wires themselves are ok? The ONLY thing that looks out of whack is the relay that the Ferrari dealer added, but more commentary when I show that pic. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
And here's the relay... At first I noticed there was a bit of space between the relay and the socket, then the relay itself has some white-looking mineral deposits on the lower left side of the relay picture, shorting pins 86 and 87 possibly - think it's the remnants of the short? And also, the last shot is my pinion gear from the starter. Looks ok there too, right? Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
THIS. The main battery switch in the right front compartment. REMEMBER THIS. Especially if you have an electrical fire. (as a result of burned up starter wiring). You cannot put out an electrical fire without killing the juice FIRST!
Yeah, I completely forgot about that dial switch and I don't know if it's even hooked up. My battery cover and hood were open anyway (cleaning around there) so I just reached in, undid the screws and yanked the ground wire off (the battery).
Ditch the relay and install a WAI solenoid. Everything looks pretty good. For now you can remove the relay and wires and just hook up your to your original solenoid. Is it a ZM solenoid? Also, you should install the red plastic protective cover over the wiring--may not keep out water but it's better than nothing.
But still test all options to find out it was only this bad functionning relay. We fogot and were happy " it's the relay" ... It was not, the toasted FB gave impulses to the relay ... You can read my story here .... (or have already read it ...)
The dark brown "corrosion" visible thru the vent hole by terminal 30 isn't a great sign either. That relay type is one that is not intended for being mounted unprotected in an engine compartment environment. You can pry off the metal cover fairly easily to inspect the internals (since you should replace it anyway at a minimum). "Better" fixes/improvements IMO for start reliability on a TR are (after getting the WAI solenoid as Tim suggested ): 1. to reduce the sole reliance on the two connections in the white wire terminal 50 path at the fuse-relay panel by adding a jumper wire (in parallel to the existing path) from the white wire in the w connector to the white wire in the y connector. 2. Ensure the white wire spade connector in the C11 connector under the coolant expansion tank is clean/tight. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/319238-88-5tr-wont-crank-over.html http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142497099-post2.html
Test it and see. If it isn't hooked up get it redone. All it does is interrupt the positive cable as it runs out to the rest of the car. It could mean the difference between a minor problem like you just had or a total loss of the car.
Stupid question, where is this main battery switch that Spasso mentioned? I haven't been around my car in months so I can't remember if I've seen anything. Thanks for the help.
It's a round, black, dial-looking switch located inside the front bonnet, above the battery compartment door.
The battery cut-off switch is wired into the negative cable side of the battery. Agree about having the cut-out installed and working. From the OP's photo's of the additional relay installation I am amazed at the poor standard of workmanship if this was installed like that by a Ferrari dealer (or any dealer for that matter).
Yup, most definitely done by the Ferrari dealer. For more fun experiences I've had with this dealer, check out my post #7 in this thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/rocky-mountain-sponsored-ferrari-denver/473381-impressions-steve-harris.html Image Unavailable, Please Login
And also, in regards to the WAI solenoid, is the consensus to *replace* my starter solenoid (not the relay mentioned in this thread) with the WAI one, or to replace the relay hookup with the WAI solenoid (ie, having two solenoids hooked up: the WAI one and the existing one on the starter?) Thanks!
I can't speak for the consensus but what I meant was go back to the stock wiring (remove relay), clean/check all suspect starter connections as Steve mentioned, and install the WAI solenoid. I asked earlier if the current solenoid is a "ZM" brand solenoid--others have used those and state they perform as well as the WAI. I replaced my OEM Bosch solenoid with a WAI unit--never had a no-crank instance since (mine also had a aftermarket relay installed which I removed).
Passenger side, vertical interior panel, up and aft of the battery box location in forward compartment. I turn mine off (almost) every time I park the car, if for no other reason than to secure the car and reduce parasitic draw-down of the battery.
Update: Success! Well, first I tried starting the car (with the starter secured to the block by screwing the left side hole on the back of the top bellhousing hole (this prevented the pinion from engaging with the flywheel, but the starter could still turn freely)). Had the suspect relay in, turned the key, and nothing... So I took the relay out of the loop, returned the wiring to stock, and... Tada! Started up! Ran it for about 15 mins and things were fine. I haven't determined where my stock solenoid is from, that's the next step. Thanks as always for you guys' help!
