83958 Major - 2016 - Cooling System | FerrariChat

83958 Major - 2016 - Cooling System

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by vincenzo, Mar 13, 2016.

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  1. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    #1 vincenzo, Mar 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  2. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    #2 vincenzo, Mar 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Installed the hoses with a small amount of nickle anti-seize. A reasonable amount on the nipple - the excess gets pushed OUT of the connection rather than into it. A very, very thin layer inside the hose itself... just enough to 'wet' the surface.

    Why not sil-glyde? Anti-sieze has worked well for me in the past and it acts as a corrosion inhibitor for the nipple's exterior.

    Is that one fine nipple, or what?

    The nipple face shows the original, un-machined roughness from the casting and NOT corrosion!

    Orange witness marks confirm that the final torque has been applied.

    Life Is Good,
    Vincenzo

    PS: These 'under the manifold' lines would be pain in the A$$ to replace when the engine is in the car - consider them as an essential change at each Major!
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  3. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #3 vincenzo, Mar 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    At the last major, I was sent a two piece seal for the water pump. At the time, I was told it was the new, 'superseded' version.

    It leaked!

    This is a pic of the replacement one piece seal PN130932 that is in the car now. It was watertight.

    Life Is Good,
    vincenzo
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  4. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #4 vincenzo, Mar 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is the new seal PN183759.

    For reference, my '90 engine No. is 20924 - USA spec.

    This seal is (once again) a new superseded version from Ferrari.

    Has anybody got any good/bad feedback on this new seal design?

    Fingers Crossed,
    Vincenzo
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  5. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #5 vincenzo, Mar 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The current seal in the engine is PN130932.

    Before engine 20821, Ferrari called for PN120948.
    That PN is now superseded by PN152051.

    Starting at engine 20821, Ferrari NOW calls for PN183759. Once again, my engine is 20924.

    PN183759 is a NEW seal design since my 2008 Major. Back then, Ferrari called for PN130932.

    My new seal, which appears to be PN183759, is marked on the back with "94574 M.T.U 120-14".

    What a friggin mess Ferrari have made of this seal issue.

    No wonder MB have been kicking their butts in F1.

    Life Is Good,
    vincenzo
    PS: The info and pic is from the Ricambi web pages.
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  6. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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    #6 vincenzo, Mar 13, 2016
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  7. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #7 vincenzo, Mar 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  8. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    Good post Vince.
     
  9. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #9 vincenzo, Mar 14, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    There is no elegant way to pull the seal (that I know of).

    It comes apart in bits...
    Be sure to plug off your WP inlet or you'll be fishing for bits of ceramic in the passageway.
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  10. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #10 vincenzo, Mar 14, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    After the majority of the seal comes out, you are left with the main 'cup' and the sleeve.

    Definately use a drill stop as you open a few holes for the slide hammer. Don't let the drill yank itself into the seal.
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  11. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #11 vincenzo, Mar 14, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The cup popped out quite easily with the slide hammer. Never needed to use two of the three holes that were drilled.

    In the lower left area of the seal, you can see where the slide hammer's screw contacted the seal. A non issue since the depth was so shallow. A more blunt nose screw would have helped.
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  12. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #12 vincenzo, Mar 14, 2016
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    This is the cup after removal. You can see how deeply the screw went past the backside of the cup.

    The two unused holes can be seen in this pic as well.
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  13. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #13 vincenzo, Mar 14, 2016
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    Remove the sleeve before you go after the seal. The sleeve pulls out with you fingers - do not mar the surface with tools.

    The seal pops out easily with my most expensive tool.... a free paint can opener. Use a prybar through the loop to pull out the seal.

    Once you finish, use the seal tool's other end to open a beer :)
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  14. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #14 vincenzo, Mar 14, 2016
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  15. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #15 vincenzo, Mar 14, 2016
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    This is the seal after removal. Minimal damage - a good target to ensure that there is no collateral damage to the other surfaces or the bearing. A more blunt slide hammer screw would have left this seal looking like new.
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  16. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #16 vincenzo, Mar 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As previously mentioned, during my 2008 Major, the wrong seal was installed in the car.

    Before the 2008 Major, the previous 'professional' had installed a two piece seal - it was watertight.

    The pic (right side) shows the seal which I had installed as a "supersession" to the two piece seal. It failed, even though it looked better going in than after it came back out :)

    The pic (left side) is the seal PN130932 which was its 2008 watertight replacement.

    As previously mentioned, the 'new' ferrari seal is PN183759.

    Just wanted to add a bit more documentation...

    Life IS Good,
    vincenzo
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  17. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #17 vincenzo, Mar 18, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    On post #4, there is a pic of the new seal PN183759.

    After extremely close examination, PN183759 appears to be identical to the leaky seal which failed at my 2008 Major. See this pic of the failed seal compared to PN183759 in post #4. The only difference seems to be the color of the upper ceramic seal. Today's new seal is black, compared to the old seal's white color.
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  18. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #18 vincenzo, Mar 18, 2016
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    Since it will be hydrotested - I moved forward with the new seal PN183759. After 48Hrs, we'll see if it is watertight.

    The 'tube' was pressed into the seal:
    The 1-1/4" pipe shown in the pic fits the seal's flange perfectly after the pipe's internal weld was filed smooth. It left plenty of clearance for the seal's spring and ceramic assembly.

    Note that the seal's internal diameter is NOT 90deg to the 'cup' portion which is inserted into the engine. The spring's coil shape cants the internals off to one side.

    The enclosed tool supports the seal face on the dowel and NOT on the canted flange. The pipe was in place as the seal was pressed onto the tube, but the canted flange face was above the 1-1/4" pipe. This ensured that the seal's internals were pressed straight onto the tube.
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  19. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #19 vincenzo, Mar 18, 2016
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    Using the old seal and tube, here is how it looked going into the press.

    Note that the 'cup' flange is really bent up on this old seal. Normally, it would extend to the OD of the 1-1/4" pipe.
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  20. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    Mating surfaces were carefully wiped down with brake cleaner before silicon was applied.

    Permatex Ultra Grey was used between the tube and seal. All excess was removed after the pressing

    An extremely, extremely thin layer of silicon was applied to the water pump shaft, along with a generous portion of silicon in the seal's internal diameter. The silicon was so thin on the shaft... it was translucent.

    The oil seal was lightly filled with synthetic grease, and the tube at the oil seal juncture was also covered in grease before assembly.

    The seal was tapped into place with the 1-1/4" pipe (no dowel), all excess silicon was pushed OUT of the water pump seal towards the front and essentially zero silicon gets pushed into the coolant/oil seal cavity. The lack of silicon in the cavity was confirmed with a Q-tip.
     
  21. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    #21 vincenzo, Mar 18, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    UNFORTUNATELY, Ricambi is out of stock on their WP installation tool. With low demand, Daniel is hesitant to order another production run of these tools.

    As I have installed this seal, the internals are put into tension as the seal's cup is driven down the water pump shaft. This MAY be a source for seal damage during installation.

    We really need these tools - call Daniel and place your order!!!

    May "The Force" provide a water tight seal,
    vincenzo
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  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    thank you for all the info vincenzo

    until now if I used some special tool I made it by myself so as I need it, so no reason to buy one what is just now out of stock and you don´t know how long it will take until there are some more produced.
     
  23. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    Vince,
    Do you have dimensions needed for the installation tool? Maybe I can machine one up for you?
     
  24. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

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    YES!

    I was not satisfied with this install and will order a new seal from Ricambi today.

    I propose that we press these seals in and do away with the !-hammering-! of a fragile ceramic seal. The part needed on the lathe will be simple. I can hand fabricate the press apparatus.

    If you make 2ea of the seal mounts, I'll make 2ea of the press apparatus and send one to you in return.

    Drawings will follow so we can kick around some ideas.

    Great Idea,
    Thanks,
    vincenzo
     
  25. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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