the other thread got hijacked and chopped up, so thought we better start another one. i think boxers have settled into a nice value range now, that is much more deserving than where it was a few years ago. from what i can tell at the moment, the values are roughly: 365bb 350-500k 512bb 300-400k 512bbi 250-350k i dont necessarily agree with these ranges, but it seems thats what the mkt says. do i think it will go back down? well if the world falls apart, sure boxers will drop. but as things are set for the moment, they will likely hold around these levels. do i think they might increase? that depends a little on the fed and everything else. if money continues to have a declining value, those with money will want to convert it to something that has a greater chance of upside or at least retaining value. so art, cars, gold, land etc will have some support. but much higher than here within the next 18 months is hard to see. my 2 lire.
Dollar losing value?? I don't know about that. I do however think savy investors will gravitate towards these cars as investments, or more precisely, as a hedge against government as confidence dwindles. IMO, look to the Gold, Bond and of course, the Currency markets which should rise in tandem for the same reasons. Better still, look at the past 5 years for $USD (DXY below) and Boxer prices. This is not anacdotal but rather makes pretty good sense to me. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Ross....thanks for re-directing the discussion back to Boxer values. The other thread went off the track and hit the tire [or Dyno-mat] wall. It seems that the softening of the values for BBs is really indicative of what is occurring with many other cars and much of the car market overall. About 2 years ago 550s began their skyrocket to hit the upper 100's. Now they are softening in pricing. TRs the same. And many vintage cars are off 20% or more from their 2014-15 peaks. It seems many models had their day in the sun and now are settling down. I feel this is actually a healthy stage. Rampant price increases that don't stop and settle can end up in a free fall like the late 80s crashing of exotic car values. It really doesn't matter unless you are selling or buying or trying to figure out how much insurance you need. Of course if you are a dealer you have to predict future values of these cars correctly lest you be sitting on over-valued inventory. For owners...if you like what you have just drive the wheels off Mike Sheehan recently wrote an article making the point that Baby Boomers are reaching a stage when they don't want to buy vintage cars anymore. He states that health, estate, retirement and other life issues have taken the forefront resulting in a lack of interest for the less "user friendly" vintage cars. And that was his reasoning for the softening of much of the car market. Having owned 2 BBs for a 20 year stretch at least I can agree with Sheehan's less-than-user-friendly description for Boxers. But I don't know about generalization of the Baby Boomers getting too old concept........I just made a deal on a beautiful 67 Stepnose Alfa....no a/c, no power anything....but I can't wait to drive the heck out of it. I guess according to Sheehan I might be an anomaly? Somehow I doubt I am. I think what is happening is just a normal cycle of the market. Normal cycles are healthy.
You are going to a classic car that is more user friendly. The Alfa has superior ingress/egress, outside visibility (greenhouse). Sounds like this tradeoff is working for you.
The car market, specificaly for Italian iron is softening because it got oversold, overhyped and a lot of inventory came into the pipleline form high prices. Couple that with speculators seeing the rise is over and 20% settling seems a healthy mild reaction. The same thing happened to american iron a decade or so ago. 20% softening seems to be the norm, and then a long flat period.
I am okay with a 20% correction after such a dramatic increase! Your sense of comfort with the correction really depends upon the price when you got in.
The art market has had a meltdown, next are the cars.My BB has been flipped many times there are speculators in this game. The mantra for years on this site was don't buy a car as an investment, buy it cause you want the car. Now thats been flipped on its head with shows such as Waynes Chasing Classic Cars and particularly Legendary Motor Cars who constantly is talking about the investment potential of this car or that. Reminds me of Timeshare Salesmen sales pitches with catchy words like investment, big returns, collectibilty. The top tier ultra rare race cars will always have a demand but its tricked down to almost every car now is an investment, Porsche 930s, 993s for example good cars but they made alot of them.Ford GTs hitting $500k come on this is getting a bit ridiculous all its gonna take is a big shake up at an auction or two many of these cars will be worth half what someone paid a year earlier. This is unsustainable, Tulips. After I sold my BB bought a 92 Diablo I can double my money now but what would I buy then? A 360 or 430,458 looks pedestrian parked next to it even though its a dated design, I see 458s all the time here and Huracans as rentals, I have asked the drivers if they get a lot of reactions or stalkers when driving them they look suprised I asked and say no, when they are filling up no ones snapping pics or checking out the cars, the Diablo is on a different level cant drive it without phones hanging out windows filming it, ( I dont pay attention but this from friends following me) or when parked people asking questions taking pics. Instant Celebrity Lol. I bought the car for fun not an investment, those that are only looking at dollar signs are gonna get burned.
I haven't looked back when I sold my 79 BB ( 276 k). It was a good car and I spent quite a lot of money on it, but I don't miss it. So I bought a 599. I almost love it.
. . . and I should have bought the 5, 330GTCs at 90K, the Lusso at 65K. but we didn't and we still are lucky enough to own a Boxer. If you have owned one since early 2014, you are fine if you are speculating or concerned about the value. However, many things effect value, How many miles are you driving the car, how much maitanence has been avoided, overall condition; original vs restored. If it is about investment, IMO cars are not good, except for the unique times right before a huge price increase (bubble). Over a long haul, most don't really make anything when you factor insurance, maintenance and storage, gas, ect. That's why I buy cars I like and cars I like to drive.
I've owned my BBI since 1985. I've seen the market go way up and back down a few times. I never really paid attention to it. I knew it would never leave my garage, so I never really cared what the value is/was. Even with the other cars I own. It's not about the $$$$. It's about the joy of owning it.
The good part with lower valueds lower insurance. Or not too outrageous to insure at replacement value. A 250k car is far less to insure than 500k and the driving experience is not enhanced with value. That way if you are out Driving and it all goes pear shaped the cars insurance comfortably buys you another great one. At 500k far less are getting driven and used as built. Although high value may mean a lot more maintanance gets done, better preserving the remaining fleet.
many people disagree with my prediction of recession in the business thread.... so it seems to me that folks will still be hunting around for some preserver of value....i think cars continue to be among the things people choose, and ferrari's are the bluechip sector of that market. i think there will at least be good support for boxer numbers where they are now, and potentially they go higher.
Seems reasonable. Would indicate rationality and a 25-30% decline off peak, just like a lot of aother cars.. Lets see if the italian car price slide stops there.
Pretty safe to assume the sub 100k days are gone. If it did slip to that range I'm sure other world negative financial factors would take place. It's good for everyone for prices to stabilize.
The few BB's that traded for $250-$300K were in many cases were good restoration candidates and in others just so so cars. At the same time we saw the really good cars bring closer to a $350K mark with one real good one selling for $365K. So the range you posted is for your lower quality cars. I just want to clarify that. The variance in quality between the rough cars and the very best quality cars should be up to $150K or in some cases higher. To restore these cars is not cheap nor is it to find a unused mint car as many are part of large collections tucked away for the foreseeable future. Geno
Actually I saw a pretty nice one sell two months ago for 295k. I would say the buyer did well. Agreed the variance for a rough car to the best of the best should be a pretty wide margin.
6 Boxers on EBay now, 8 Countaches as well, all Dealers getting nervous trying to unload the cars. Anyone that buys now will over pay give it a year prices will be half
I think you are right Jeff, we see that happening over here in EU already now ! TR's can be found under KE100 now again also ... (mail me via melvok@gmailDOTcom)
I have a 1981 512bb, and yes its a great car, and I see part of it's attraction being the fabulous flat 12 motor, it is one of a kind (well apart from the Porsche 917), so can someone explain why all of a sudden the Dino is seen to be worth more money, there were a lot more made, they have a Fiat V6 and rust like a Ford Anglia!!!!
the dino have no fiat V6 the fiat (dino and dino spider ) have the ferrari V6 and and the fiat 130 has own fiat V6, but not otherwise. looks nearly equal, but they are different but why they are more expensice than the BB???? don´t know may be less production?
