Clutch / Throw out bearing chirping? | FerrariChat

Clutch / Throw out bearing chirping?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by rpissm, Jun 10, 2016.

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  1. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    Hey everyone! An interesting chirping sound is now coming from the clutch area of my TR. It's even there at idle in neutral. It kind of comes and goes but it's getting more consistent. Is that a symptom of a bad throw out bearing? Clutch still works. Thanks!
     
  2. Ferrari Testarossa

    Feb 27, 2011
    88
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    David Mason
    My TR was producing a sound that was similar to your description and it was indeed the throw-out bearing. It was very noisy when engaging 1st gear. The bearing was shot.
     
  3. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    is this chirping getting louder or different when pressing the clutch pedal?
    your also hear it when pressed the pedal und 1 gear is inside?
     
  4. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

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    #4 rpissm, Jun 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Cool, thanks for the info. Weird part to me is that the chirping is happening at idle, with no one touching the clutch pedal, in neutral. (and while driving the car as well). Could it be an input shaft bearing? All the symptoms I've had of bad TO bearings on other cars were tied to depressing the clutch pedal.

    I've attached a video. The video is low quality but the audio is high quality. The chirp is there.

    Thanks, as always!
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  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    what is when you push the clutch pedal without the car moving and 1 gear in?
    still to hear?
    or nothing then?
     
  6. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
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    Ok just took it out... No difference in the sound whether clutch pedal is in or out, in gear or not
     
  7. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
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    Well, actually it does seem to get louder when I'm in the process of pushing the pedal in or out
     
  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    then put it out nd have a look
    not so much work to do this
    and please make photos to post here.
    thanks and good luck
     
  9. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    If it is the throwout bearing, or most anything associated with the clutch, you should get significant changes in the sound when you depress the clutch pedal.
    Cheers,
    Vincenzo
     
  10. jgmblair

    jgmblair Formula Junior
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    May 27, 2010
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    Winnipeg, MB Canada
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    Jeff Blair
    I had a similar noise like a "chirp" with depressing or easing off the clutch, I found the pilot bearing was toast when I did the major on my car which included servicing the clutch. Haven't heard it since and that was 1000k ago and we did not replace the throw out bearing as it still looked and felt fine. Good luck.
     
  11. ozziindaus

    ozziindaus F1 Veteran
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    Aug 16, 2012
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    Been there. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/414330-chirping-sound-when-releasing-clutch.html

    It's gone now but I ended up changing the clutch, TO bearing, pilot bearing and re-lubed the spline shaft. I don't know exactly where that chirp was coming from but I'm sure it had to come from one of those. In any event, the chirp is likely an indication that something is just not right back there. Once you have your exhaust off, it's all smooth sailing getting into the bell housing......with the exception of realigning the shaft :(

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/436550-throwout-bearing-thrust-bearing-clutch-release-bearing.html
     
  12. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
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    Awesome, thanks as always everyone for your input! I'll post back when I have it apart!
     
  13. qwazipsycho

    qwazipsycho Formula 3

    Oct 30, 2004
    1,176
    Utah
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    Scott
    Mine started chirping a little. Then more, and more. Eventually one day, while sitting in traffic of course, it decided to seize up and scream if I put my foot on the clutch. Fortunately I wasn't far from home so I stepped on it real quick and got it moving, then into second while it screamed for a second. Stayed back from traffic and just stayed in 2nd all the way into my driveway and just shut it off.

    It takes about 45 minutes, less if you have help, to replace the T.O. bearing. And it's easy to do on the ground. If your clutch is working just do the T.O. but make sure the fingers on the pressure plate didn't get damaged. Don't let it completely seize up and that won't happen.
     
  14. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

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    #14 rpissm, Jun 26, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ok, got the bellhousing off. Looks like the clutch is a Berg and Borg unit - anyone have experience with them? Also, the throw out bearing - When I manually spin it it definitely sounds like grinding in there. Also, what are you guys thoughts on the black liquid inside the bellhousing (in the pic it's upside down). Think it's juice from the TO bearing, or clutch fluid, or tranny oil?
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  15. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

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    #15 rpissm, Jun 26, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Also, I'm wondering about the red dust on the shaft and in the clutch. I think it's too red to be rust but what are you guys thoughts?
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  16. ozziindaus

    ozziindaus F1 Veteran
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    All looks very familiar. The black liquid is clutch fluid leaking from the TOB carrier seals. The red rust is likely vibration corrosion (very fine) from the clutch pressure plate fingers.

    Do the whole job man. I and others here, have had good success with Clutch Masters in California refurbishing the entire clutch. Costs about $1000 and they'll machine the plates, flywheel and of course put fresh friction surfaces.

    I got my TO bearing from Super Performance UK. It was the best deal and met physical dimensions. Resembles the more costly Capristo but quite honestly, not sure if it's the same one.

    Seals (TOB carrier + oil channels) and flywheel bolts from Ricambi. Good value and in your case, must be changed. Total job should be <$1500 and a couple of days of hands on work at most. Good luck and check past threads for tips and tricks.
     
  17. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

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    Lol, yeah its looking like I'm going to have to. And one correction on my clutch type - it's Borg and beck. Dunno what I was thinking when I typed berg and Borg lol. Also, I'll post a video of my manual spinning of the TO bearing. Those are supposed to glide nicely, with no noise, right?
     
  18. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

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    #18 rpissm, Jun 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  19. ozziindaus

    ozziindaus F1 Veteran
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    Joe, I did not mean that in a critical way. Just thinking back when I was doing mine. At one stage, I did not even want to change the TOB or machine the plates.

    Anyway, your bearing is shot. Appears that the seals have worn and debris has migrated in. New bearings should not spin freely either but rather have resistance due to the contact seal. They will however be smooth and quiet.

    If you do decide to send your clutch to Clutch Masters, make sure it returns in the same configuration so physically mark it before you send it out. Someone here (forgot the name) mentioned that they do not balance them but that's OK so long as you don't change the orientation. They'll also paint it so either specify the color or tell them not to.

    Couple more tips:

    -Use an impact gun to remove the flywheel bolts but hand tighten them back on with the appropriate tightening pattern and torque. I also used a Loctite for extra assurance.
    -Lightly lube the spline shaft with anti seize so that the friction plates all work with equal pressure.
    -Make sure you use the correct alignment tool. Anything else will make your life hell
    -Pay close attention to the small c-clips on the studs as mentioned in previous threads
    -Change out the pilot bearing on the fly wheel. Its about $20 and also from Ricambi. You'll need a bearing pull to remove it. Be very careful putting the new one back in since it's easy to misalign.
    -Don't forget to top off the lost gearbox oil. I ended up changing it all with the correct Redline grade (~$150). That's also discussed in other threads.

    I believe you have the original clutch from the pics you posted. Please post photos of your clutch plates when you dissemble the clutch. It would be interesting to see the depth of wear and pattern to try and correlate it back to mileage. Mine were worn very un-evenly at <9000 miles suggesting that the problem arose due to the car sitting for years undriven.
     
  20. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

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    Awesome, thanks for the pointers, Sam! Much appreciated!
     
  21. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
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    OK, a couple questions on parts:

    Which one of these clutch alignment tools should I get for an '87 US spec TR? Superformance lists two: one that's 1.25 inches, and the other is 1.125 inches:

    Clutch Parts for Ferrari 365 GT4 BB, 512 & Testarossa - Superformance

    And I'm assuming the clutch alignment tool will make the input shaft bearing a breeze to put in?

    Also, when it comes to the bearing carrier / slave cylinder (mine's leaking), has anyone ever rebuilt one of those? There are a few (expensive) seals listed, just wondering if you knew whether they all had to be replaced, or if there was one problematic one, or anything else you can pass along

    CLUTCH AND CONTROLS - Ricambi America, Inc.

    And Sam, on your very helpful clutch thread, for the bill of materials, you don't list the specific part numbers. :) Do you have that around anywhere?

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144099213-post54.html

    Thanks!
     
  22. ozziindaus

    ozziindaus F1 Veteran
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    #22 ozziindaus, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
    If you go to Clutch Masters (I know I sound like I'm rep'ing them :p) you will get a free one. From memory, it's also for a Toyota but IT'S NOT PERFECT FOR OUR USE but then again, I did not rely on a tool entirely to make it fit as per posted thread. I'll leave it up to others to comment on the best one but it can still be done with the freebie (just run one turn of electrical tape at the pilot bearing end and you'll be good (Shamile's trick).

    The tool is made to align all the clutch plates (friction and metal) in the correct orientation in relation to the splined shaft AND also allow the end of the spline shaft to aim for the pilot bearing ID. You'll still need to wiggle a little.

    Here are a few tips:

    Once you have approximate alignment (pay attention to the horizontal axis of the tool), lightly torque the pressure plate to the clutch assembly in vehicle so that they stay put but enough to still allow a little movement when the spline shaft forces it to move. Then hope the bell housing with spline shaft goes through.

    Put the gearbox in 1st or reverse and rock it back an forth whilst pressing on the bell housing to help final alignment.

    After you have it in, you will need to torque the bolts to final spec. through the timing slots using a spanner. No torque wrench used which is why I practiced offline to get a feel for the approximate torque setting. I know it's not conventional but it's why I tightened them multiple times as I turned the flywheel with a large screw driver.
    If you're ballsy, you can torque a couple of bolts to a higher torque through the timing slot, remove the bell housing, torque the bolts with torque wrench (don't forget that there is a sequence) and then prey you haven't misaligned them.
    Should be seals 21 and 22. I may have misquoted their prices earlier but they shouldn't be more than $50. Also, as long as your surfaces are clean on the "BUSH SUPPORTING FLANGE (17)" side, then no need to rebuild anything but it is essential that you change these seals.

    I've made sure to keep all the baggy's with the original parts. I'll post PN's once I get home.
     
  23. ozziindaus

    ozziindaus F1 Veteran
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    #23 ozziindaus, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here you go Joe.

    Disregard the first line item. The rest are all for the clutch job. O-rings are the 2x oil seals for the channels going from the transaxle to the gearbox. The main seals on the TOB carrier are listed as 139439 and 139440.

    The second receipt is for the Redline Gearbox oil (FCP Euro) https://www.fcpeuro.com

    The TOB listed on Superformance site for £95.80 (70000567) is the one I ended up using and still good so far.
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  24. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
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    Awesome, thanks so much, Sam!
     
  25. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Jul 25, 2008
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    Just a side-remark ....

    On my 512TR I did change only the (one piece) clutchplate and grinded the flywheel.

    Worked fine for 2 weeks ... and the got a chirp ... of the OTB.

    Decided to let it stay and wait ... and ... it did get away after 1000 kms (one month) ... lucky me :)
     

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