Not a good month for Boxer values? | FerrariChat

Not a good month for Boxer values?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Juan-Manuel Fantango, Jan 22, 2017.

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  1. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    Going back to HHI seems like Boxer values are down. I saw the one in Hilton Head and it seemed like a 3 or 4 to me with 1 being concours. How were the Scottsdale Boxers?
     
  2. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

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    It was a very weak showing. They ranged from needing a full restoration to driver level at best, with most falling under the category of needing cosmetic and / or mechanical refreshening.

    I was interested in the black 365, which was a car that required a full restoration. While generally original, there were no books, tools, or spinners, so I factored all of this into the price. At hammer, plus commission, plus import tax due on this car, it put total purchase at around $355k. With restoration and accessories this put it out of reach for me. I may regret this in the future however. Time will tell.
     
  3. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

    Oct 26, 2006
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    Chris I realize pictures don't reveal the car's condition well, but the black 365 didn't seem that it required a full restoration. It looked quite clean. Can you expand on that?

    Tks

     
  4. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

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    It looked good in pictures, but did not present well close up. Tired paint from 1982 in incorrect color, interior redone around the same time in incorrect leather, suspension needed rebuilding and replating, engine was minimally serviced last year, but did not present well. No prior service records for 20 plus years previously and my hunch is the car was not driven much since then, so I would assume will need more than just the belt change that was performed and a full engine compartment detail. Belly pan was changed to a thin aluminum sheet, corrosion on headers, and surface corrosion on the frame. To preserve this car properly for the future, a full nut and bolt restoration would be warranted in my opinion. That being said, it is a great candidate for one.
     
  5. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

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    Thank you for the explanation. 365 BB's if recently restored or for a high quality drivers were bringing $450-500k not long ago. Therefore the result makes sense.

     
  6. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    1983 Ferrari 512 BBi | Arizona 2017 | RM Sotheby's

    This car sold for 210 which seems low for the write up, but who knows how many miles it really has?

    And of course they say the car is exceptional as noted below, but what are they to say about an average car? That it is average?

    This exceptional 512 BBi, originally finished in the same color is sports today, was first imported into the United States by William Lyon in July 1983. It was then acquired by Michael Jean of Denver, Colorado, in 1985. Shortly thereafter, he sold the car to another gentleman in Colorado, noting that the BBi had only 2,700 miles at the time. In 1987, with less than 3,000 miles, the car was acquired by Karl Dedolph of Minneapolis, Minnesota. Dedolph maintained the car for the next five years when he offered it for sale in 1992. Eight years later, the Ferrari was offered once more where it was bought by Richard Scott of Sidney, Ohio. At the time, it was noted that the odometer had been changed. Several years later, the 512 BBi was acquired by collector Robert Iannucci, who maintained it until 2011, when he sold it to Frank Gallogly of Lakeville, Connecticut. It was subsequently acquired by the current consignor in 2012.

    Today, the car presents exceptionally well and remains highly original throughout. The BBi also retains is original owner’s manuals in their original pouch, as well as the original jack in its bag.
     
  7. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    #7 Juan-Manuel Fantango, Jan 23, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    We are interested in values although this car will never be put on the market in our lifetime. Michael Hemsley of Vintage Road Car paid us a visit and did this article on Julie and her Boxer ownership in the current issue of Vintage Race Car/Vintage Road Car. It was fun watching him ride around in a lounge chair in the back of a pickup truck as we drove up and down our country roads. We really liked Michael-nice guy! I just think they are so undervalued. Same for Daytona's. But what do i know, Markets are perfect.

    This is a nice one, 11,000 km.

    https://vintageracecar.com/butterfly-or-bee/
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Even from the pics, we can see its a scrappy repaint. Still price are quite obviously off.
     
  9. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

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    Correct. The interior was fairly nice and original but the paint was not great, engine required major service and suspension needed work.
     
  10. gbutler

    gbutler Formula Junior

    Jun 9, 2005
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    My take on the the RM result - 210k plus buyers premium means purchase price of 231k. No mention of recent service history was ever mentioned in the write-up, so I would immediately assume the car needed a full major service --- and I bet the car hasn't been driven much in recent years so figure to get it road worth 10 to 15k --- then I also would imagine the car is still riding on it's original shocks and suspension bushings - so another 5 to 10k depending upon whether you do it yourself or pay someone to rebuild the suspension -- so call it approx. 20k in mechanical work to get road worthy and you are up to 250k. Also, whenever I look at a boxer I always want to get the car back to it's original Euro spec look, hence removing all US emissions equipment, side marker lights, etc. Personally, I have a greater desire and value a car more for one that is in this original Euro look and will immediately discount the price of getting the car to that look. This car would require some paint and body work to remove the side markers front and rear, but fortunately these were placed "below the belt line" therefore requiring only fiberglass work to the font and rear spoilers/bumper. ALso, I noticed an emissions canister on the driver rear engine fender well, which I would also remove. Again, these items may not be a big deal for most people but are just my opinion and the way I approach valuing a boxer. On a positive note, the interior looked very good from the pictures. ALso, since I didn't see this car and there was no mention of service in the auction house write up, I am only assuming the car is due for major work. When I add the issues I see up I arrive somewhere around 260k hoping there are no other surprises. I would say that is not too far off where I would think a good driver quality ready to go no stories injected car would sell at.

    The car I can't explain though is the ex Newman black 78 carb car that sold for 255k -- IMHO someone got a steal!!
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Im not concerned about the values of the cars we've seen sell because the general consensus is people pay the money for exceptional cars and none of them that I know of are 99 point cars that are even being offered. These cars are very expensive to restore and parts are becoming NLA which means even more money because you have to make parts from scratch. Im running into this very problem. A boxer rad for example used to be $1000 now eurospares wants $5000 (canadian funds). So I can see that any car thats not near perfect or correct could take a hit. And anyone thats paid to have a boxer properly painted achieving perfect panel alignment knows how painful that can be. Or maybe im giving too much credit to the buyers lol.

    Either way im not worried. Everything goes in cycles. Just look at what the nuts are paying for 70 cuda's again after a little breather in the market.
     
  12. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    what please is a rad? radiator? here I have an italian radiator specialist who did mine with stronger net and larger pipes inside about 3 years ago for about 1400 €. just now he may ask about 1800 €
     
  13. dadams73

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  14. dadams73

    dadams73 Formula Junior

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  15. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
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    Boxer is a great car, just more places to put your money in 2017.
     
  16. Spitfire

    Spitfire Formula 3

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    Got a link to this one?
     
  17. wlanast

    wlanast Formula 3
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    Well said, sums up my view as well.
     
  18. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

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    Even that is expensive, sorry to say. I just had a copper radiator and expansion tank rebuilt locally, completely new matrix and much finer than the original, heavier too. €340 including paint. Not for a Ferrari but that shouldn't matter anyway.
    These shops are a slowly dying breed unfortunately.
     
  19. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    As a sign of how the market has moved, remember 2014 when two BBIs wil lowish miles that had sat for a decade or more sold for somethign like 350K, and these were cars needign the full redo.

    then there was the famous racing drivers car, which according to people here has poor panel fit and not so great paint that went for over 400k.

    The balck car that burned in an eltircal fire, it went for what 150K.

    So the low 2s for a the superlative Newman redone black BB says a lot.

    These cars are back in the 200-250k range for nice ones.

    The good part, boxers were not longer being driven and used, too collectable for such treatment. Now maybe they go back to the hands of driving enthusiasts.

    We also know the market high was headed towards 500k, next car market go around a BBI is a 500K car. Buy now , enjoy for 5-10 years and compliment yourself on your wisdom.

    Its also tells me nice Trs are really 85-100k cars now.

    Great time to buy.
     
  20. exotic30

    exotic30 Karting

    Jun 22, 2008
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    Where are all the auction results please?
     
  21. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    So,me reasonable prices, and some good buys. The Jarama and the QV seem very well bought, hard to understand a 25 anniv being more expensive than a QV, so strange results. Almost like luck of the draw.
     
  22. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I think more time needs to pass before any conclusion is met. When I bought my first 82 boxer the price was flat for 10 years during my ownership and it was stable long before that. There was no question what the market value was. Now is no different than when it went crazy because cars were selling for an unusual amount that was surprising us all and now people are taking a breather? Or the great cars are tucked away? Lets see if prices become consistent then you can really say what one might be worth in any given condition.

    Sean would you let yours go for $250K?
     
  23. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Would I sell mine for $250k? No, so thats two less on the market. And im betting the black one I did the mechanical on wont come to market for $250K
     
  24. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    To answer your question, someone was offering me, or teasing me with an offer in the mid 300,000s a year ago. I told him my price was 500k and that when we go to 500K I woudl probably rethink to a higher number.

    500k woudl probbaly be my number because for that money there are 3 or 4 cars I would buy. But then I am also a sentimentalist and as the BBi has been with me for 23 years now
    I hope not to have to sell ever.
     

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