Help please, car dying at stops after major... | FerrariChat
Buy

Help please, car dying at stops after major...

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by bpu699, May 27, 2017.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

Page 1 of 2
  1. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #1 bpu699, May 27, 2017
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
    Alright, what did I do wrong?

    Finished the major 3 months ago, ran the car in the garage several times looking for water seal or oil leaks... No problems. Car started fine, ran fine... At least parked.

    Today, beautiful day out side...

    Do some small projects left on the car...

    1) checked to make sure oxygen sensors hooked up to the correct banks...check
    2) wasn't sure if cooling fans were coming on, so checked connectors to temp sensors, cleaned them of.
    3) checked the connectors in fuse box... They look great, no burned connectors

    Started the car...

    Started fine. Oddly, I usually see some grey smoke on start up, as there are no cats. Always smells rich on start up. This time didn't do that. Now, I did hook up the smog pump. Prior guy had it disconnected...I do hear it whistle on start up. Perhaps that why no smoke?

    Ran for 30 seconds and died.

    Awe, crap. What did I do...

    Restarted it, starts fine. Give it some gas, goes to 3000 rpm. Let off the gas, rpm falls to 300rpm, alternator light comes on, it jumps to 1000 rpm and sits there...

    Motor sounds good, no weird noises, etc. temps good. No smoke, etc.

    Take it for a ride. Runs great. No issues. If I let off the gas suddenly, rpm fall to 500, motor stutters, then jumps to 1000. Most of the time... About 30 minutes into the ride, after a stop for gas, starts dying at stops if I let off the gas too quick...

    If I slowly let off the gas, idle goes to 1000 and sits there...

    So, what the heck going on?

    Did hooking up the air pump effect it?
    Did I forget to connect something?
    Did not hooking up the left bank ecu at start up effect something?
    I thought perhaps I misconceived some of the connectors in the fuse box while checking...but that seems awefully unlikely. I would think if were incorrectly hooked up the car wouldn't run...

    Any ideas appreciated...

    To me, seems like the car is lean somehow...

    When my Porsche 930 was doing the same thing, the air fuel meter showed I had set the idle mixture too lean... And it was doing this exact same thing. I rich ended up the idle and it ran great.

    But I didn't mess with the mixture, unless I inadvertently messed something up. I may be totally off base...

    Any help appreciated...

    Also, in case this makes any difference, I did replace the alternator pulley with a slightly oversized one. I previously kept throwing belts every 2000 miles and got tired of it...

    Went, checked all my connectors, and found that the front ecu connector in the engine bay was off. I had forgotten to connect it after checking oxygen sensors. Plugged it in, car started and ran fine.
     
  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    9,428
    southwest Germany, France ( Alsace ) and Thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    #2 turbo-joe, May 27, 2017
    so problem solved or still there?
     
  3. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,712
    Lakeland FL
    Full Name:
    Shamile
    #3 Shamile, May 27, 2017
    Ok, I've had this exact thing happen to me. It turned out the the engine balance was off. A few local jokers said they could do it but in the end, I sent it off to Ferrari of Central Florida and they put it on their balancer. After...perfect! No undershoot and stall.

    Shamile

    Freeze. . . Miami Vice!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
     
  4. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #4 bpu699, May 28, 2017
    No, car starts but dies at stops....
     
  5. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #5 bpu699, May 28, 2017
    It ran perfectly before the major...

    That's why I am wondering if something got disconnected?

    I did notice the battery was a bit discharged after sitting all winter. I wonder if the oversized alternator pulley plus weak battery somehow effects it at idle... But restarts easily, so battery strong enough to turn it over... Sat on the charger last night, will see what happens...

    Also will make sure all the spark plugs are firing...

    Could also check the ignition timing, though not sure how that would have been effected during a major service...

    Sigh...
     
  6. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    #6 vincenzo, May 28, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    first thing I'd check is all the vacuum lines.... especially those shown here.

    it is easy to get the vacuum line connection points mixed up.


    then move over to the electrical connections.


    after that - hope that the experts chime in!

    cheers,
    vincenzo
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #7 bpu699, May 28, 2017
    Good idea... the vacuum lines only power assist with air pump, no?

    Of interest, I do hear a "whistle" with the car running. This is new, but I assumed this was because I hooked the air pump up, before it was inactivated with a loose belt...

    Here what I did o far today:

    1) Checked throttle cable, has play/not stuck
    2) Checked to make sure both banks running, they are


    Upon cold start today, car died 3 times before finally fired up. When it started, rpm was at 600...

    After warming up to midgauge on the water temp meter, idle rpm was now 810... so, pretty low...

    When I add throttle, it runs up nicely, drops to an idle of 600, struggles, then goes back to 800 rpm.

    I was going to adjust the idle higher, but don't want to just yet as I can't figure out how that might have caused the issue... I didn't putz with the idle during the major...

    The car does seem to be running leaner. Before, if I stood behind the car I would suffocate from the gas fumes, if felt that rich. Now, not so much...

    I did clean of all of the contacts I could get to during the major. I wonder if I "fixed" something...

    Any further help appreciated...
     
  8. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,712
    Lakeland FL
    Full Name:
    Shamile
    #8 Shamile, May 28, 2017
    I really like Vince ' s vacuum line idea. This is a very vacuum dependant engine as there's no electronics.
    I would also check the direction of the check valves. Did one get put back the wrong way?

    I had that issue on my Lamborghini Diablo VT Roadster. The tech had put back the check valve the wrong way on the convertible roof lock. When the car was running...no lock. When it was off...roof lock. It took me forever to find it because it was under the carbon fiber covers..way up inside the engine bay.

    Shamile

    Freeze. . . Miami Vice!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
     
  9. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Aug 19, 2010
    981
    Greenville, NC
    Full Name:
    Jim
    #9 jim94-348, May 28, 2017
    I had the same issue and the balance was off between banks. I'd check the vacuum lines first since you could have one off or cut. This will also throw the balance off. Make sure that the vacuum line back to the connector under the fender on the left side was put back on. This is an easy one to forget. After that you will need to have it set up properly if the vacuum lines don't correct it. I don't think the air pump would affect it since that should cut off shortly after start. Have you checked the check valve to see if they are leaking? They are 34 in the diagram and there is one on each side. One final thought. Did you hook up the vacuum lines to 48 in the diagram properly. If this is wrong you can create a leak. Try taking the line off and plugging it at the manifold and see if it corrects it.
     
  10. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #10 bpu699, May 28, 2017
    Guys, is there a way to check if there is a vacuum leak without looking at each and every connection? If there were a vacuum leak, would plugging the lines at the manifold resolve it as a diagnostic step?

    I will check the check valves, but can't do it today. I guess I could have put one on backwards?

    Here are some more data points...

    When I took it for a test drive yesterday, the brakes seemed to require slightly more pressure to operate than I remember. Might just be in my mind. But I don't believe that connects with the vacuum system, as there is a mechanical vacuum pump for that running off the cam from what I remember.

    Per Steve Magnusson prior posts about poor idles I checked the voltage at the radiator temp sensor, red wire, and got 12v... Which is normal from what I can tell...

    I also checked the throttle position sensor and got the following readings...

    HOT, throttle closed, no resistance. Hot, throttle open, infinite resistance. Need to check it cold...

    Would a loose vacuum hose make it idle low??? I thought a loose vacuum hose makes the idle HIGH?

    Sigh...

    absolutely totally bummed. 2 weeks ago the gearbox on the 930 decided to stop working... now this... ARGH
     
  11. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
    1,829
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Christian
    #11 lear60man, May 28, 2017
    On my old Mercedes of the same vintage (same basic Bosch set up), I would use a can of carb cleaner to check for vacuum leaks. A little spurt here and there, if RPM's went up, I found the leak. But be careful and place a rag behind your target....that stuff will eat paint.
     
  12. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #12 bpu699, May 28, 2017
    I FOUND IT! Also, I can't believe this is it...

    On a lark, decided to jump both fuel pumps to make sure that they are working...

    Jumped the left hand relay... NOTHING.
    Jumped the right had relay...one pump runs

    Started the car, pulled the left hand relay... no change. Pulled right hand relay, car died instantly...

    I still can't believe it. This thing, assuming its running on one bank, didn't sound bad at all. I think when I was driving around yesterday, perhaps the fuel pump was going in and out??? On one fuel pump, I would expect this thing to barely run...not the case...

    So, took a temp gun and shot the exhaust on both sides. Passenger side stayed at 70-80 degrees, drivers went to 200+ pretty quick...

    Honestly, I still can't believe it. Invited my mechanic relative over, and ran the motor. He can't believe its running on 6 cylinders...

    I am ecstatic that its something "fixable."

    Went, looked at the connectors on the fuse box, they look great. Not the least bit burned or discolored...

    Any other tests I should do before buying fuel pump? Will try to run the pumps directly off a jumper battery to make sure its not a wiring issue somewhere...

    Still weird that a pump would die when a major was done. Could just be dumb luck. Any wires I could have missed somewhere??? Could a malfunctioning ECU do this?

    I am ecstatic that I at least have a diagnoses...!!!

    THANKS GUYS!!!
     
  13. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #13 bpu699, May 28, 2017
    Rear fuel pump is locked up... Only 16,000 on the car... So, hopefully simple fix
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,617
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #14 Steve Magnusson, May 28, 2017
    This is normal. The way the TR engine (and all F engines) is (are) designed, it will run perfectly smoothly on one bank; however, usually at a lower RPM -- because it's "dragging" the other bank along. So your report of it still idling at 1000 RPM is a little inconsistent with that, but could be that that fuel pump is coming in and out as you hypothesized -- but you've got to get both fuel pumps working well regardless so that has to be your first priority.

    You say that the bad fuel pump is "locked up" -- does that mean that you've confirmed it has +12V present at the terminals, but is not running? Certainly possible, but the far more common reason for a non-working pump (with the relay socket jumped) is a frazzled female white connector or frazzled male tab on the PCBA. I will add that the inside of the fuel pump is usually filled with fuel, so if you had a long downtime with all of the fuel drained, things inside can dry out.
     
  15. ozziindaus

    ozziindaus F1 Veteran

    Aug 16, 2012
    9,799
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Sam
    #15 ozziindaus, May 28, 2017
  16. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #16 bpu699, May 28, 2017
    Applied the relay bypass with a paper clip, and heard a thunk from the fuel pump...

    Went under the car, took off the pump leads to the rear pump, and used a motorcycle battery to try to spin it.. It just kept clicking, no spinning... Hit it with a hammer, applied current, no spin.

    It's locked up, just clicks...

    Wonder if it sucked in something from the tank...

    So, follow up questions...

    What's the easiest way to drain 15 gallons of fuel? I just filled up!

    Also, any generic alternatives for the pump? I see its $400. Not the end of the world, but still...

    I think the pump must have been going in and out. It didn't feel sluggish driving, though I was just cruising below 3000 rpm...

    After the fill up, the last 5 miles home, it died at every stop light...

    The white connectors look immaculate... I was worried I would cause damage jumping it... But seems fine...
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,617
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #17 Steve Magnusson, May 28, 2017
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
    Definitely possible, and the roller pump head does not pass debris well. With +12V directly on the pump motor and no workey = you can replace without regret ;)

    There isn't an easy way :( I'd suggest that you remove the rubber return line from pressure regulator going back to the tank on the side that is working, install a 6' piece of 5/16" fuel line, and then, using the jumper, pump out a few~5 gallons at a time into a fuel safe container using the fuel pump that's working. Then transfer that to another vehicle that could use some fuel. When that goes "dry", then you can just remove the rubber fuel line going to the bad fuel pump inlet and not much fuel should come out.

    No need to buy a generic substitute, just get the Bosch part from a more reasonably priced source. The F PN 121727 = Bosch 0580254947 = Bosch USA 69532 which you can buy from RockAuto (~$150), Amazon (~$160), NAPA, etc.
     
  18. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #18 bpu699, May 28, 2017
    Thanks Steve, and everyone, really appreciate it. But for this site, I could never keep this car...
     
  19. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #19 bpu699, Jun 4, 2017
  20. wildcat326

    wildcat326 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 10, 2012
    1,803
    Chicago, IL
    Full Name:
    Justin
    #20 wildcat326, Jun 12, 2017
    Unless you're going for concours correctness, just go on eBay and search for ethanol fuel lines in the size you want. F parts are insane, and generic identical hoses can be easily had. If you're willing to spend a few dollars for peace of mind and quality, you also can call Scuderia Rampante Inc and inquire about their TR hose options.
     
  21. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    #21 ///Mike, Jun 12, 2017
    Glad you got it figured out. It'll run a lot better once the other half of the engine is doing its job. :)

    One note-- without catalysts installed the air pump is pretty much worthless. It's there to promote combustion of unburned fuel in the converters by adding oxygen to the mix, but without converters all it's doing is ever-so-slightly diluting the exhaust gases, which is unlikely to make a difference even on a lax idle emission check. Unless there's some specific reason why it's still there I suggest removing and mothballing it, or at the very least disconnecting the belt. It's not serving any purpose but if it's spinning it's just one more thing to go wrong.

    My two pesos...
     
  22. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
    1,829
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Christian
    #22 lear60man, Jun 12, 2017
    Call here. They have it.

    http://****************.com/
     
  23. tommydogs

    tommydogs Karting

    Nov 9, 2016
    137
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Tommy Robinson
    #23 tommydogs, Jun 22, 2017
    Wonder if one of my pumps is going out, too. Had a major service back in March, but really haven't done anything but city driving up until tonight. Haven't got it out of 3rd gear.

    Drove it about 3.5 miles out of the city to PCH (Pacific Coast Highway, where you can go from 40 - 60 MPH if not much traffic), then another 3.5 miles to gas station to fill up, then another 7 miles to Malibu, then I turned around and drove 10.5 miles back to city, and on 3.5 mile jog back home I had several stops without a problem. Then when I'm about 4 blocks from home I'm coasting to a stop and the car shuts down. I restart it several times and it keeps shutting down. I restart it and give it some pedal (which normally should be revving it quite high) and I'm able to keep RPMs about 1000 or a little above. I'm able to very slowly drive it around the corner and park in a loading zone -- and I'm hearing a few clunks when I'm driving.

    I come back to the car about 2.5 hours later and she starts up. Still warm, but seems to be keeping idle OK. Drove it around in circles, getting more and more confident, driving farther and farther for about 5 - 7 minutes, and increasing the RPMs to over 6000. Then go to put it away in parking garage, am heading down a few levels, and then car starts sputtering again. Exact same symptoms as was happening earlier.
     
  24. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    17,474
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    #24 bpu699, Jun 22, 2017
    Try jumping each fuel pump at the relay... if its working, you know... Each to check.

    I bought the fuel pump on amazon as recommended for $150, perfect fit and looks original.

    For the hose, I used sae30r14 (I think that was it), the Gates latest hose, which is rated for e15 (we have e10 around here)... Used the 1/2 inch, slipped on easily with minor lubrication. No one makes the 5/8.

    Car runs great, now I just need time to drive it...
     
  25. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,617
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #25 Steve Magnusson, Jun 22, 2017
    Neither of these symptoms corresponds very well with a failing/failed fuel pump. When a fuel pump fails, the engine operation would still be smooth and be able to rev up (although the idle would be low and might stall).

    Sputtering and the inability to rev on a KE-Jet is more likely losing +12V power to run the injection ECUs (bad protection relay, bad connection in the round C12 connector IIRC, etc.). The easiest thing to do first is just unplug/reseat the C12 and C13 connectors -- although be careful not to break the plastic lock rings (which unscrew as the plug is withdrawn).
     
Page 1 of 2

Share This Page