Go Back   FerrariChat.com > Other Cars > British

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 04-12-2017, 07:47 PM
Bradwilliams's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,527
Bentley Arnage Genealogy

Quick FAQ for any Arnage guys here. I know the BMW VW split happened early 2000s. I can't find any definitive info on when the cars switched over the VW platform. From what I can tell the Arnage T from 2002 is VW, but I'm looking at photos and info on the 2005 model years and it looks very similar to the BMW style again. Anybody have a link on this? I'm looking at one of these for a daily driver in the next few years whenever I decide to let go of my 7 series. I'd prefer to go VW over the BMW version if at all possible. I love my 7, but it is a colossal pain in the ass. First and last BMW I'll own.
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #2  
Old 04-12-2017, 11:16 PM
Formula Junior
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Pasadena
Full Name: Keith Fraser
Posts: 400
The 1999 model year Arnage was the only year with the 4.4L V8 that is similar to your BMW 7 Series. It is referred to today as a "Green Label." Everything after that, beginning with the 2000 "Red Label" had a Bentley sourced 6.75L V8.

The Red Label Arnages (2000-2002) were prone to cooling problems associated with stuffing the 6.75L into an engine bay designed for the smaller BMW V8. These problems were somewhat fixed with the Arnage R and Arnage T, beginning in 2003. The car continued to improve and received a facelift in 2005, mainly evident in the headlight arrangement.

There was never a switch of body styles associated with the switch from BMW to VW. Only the aforementioned switch of engines. Thus, the 'Green Label' Bentley of 1999 MY (of which a total of approx. 1000 were made) is the only Arnage with the BMW mechanicals. And even that is a bit of a misnomer, as the 4.4L V8 in the Arnage, while sourced from the 7 Series, was heavily reworked by Cosworth into something that is quite unique and different from the V8 of the same vintage 7 Series.

Because the Green Label was quickly replaced when VW took over Bentley, its reputation suffered somewhat as the motoring press and enthusiasts began to look at it as a bit of an Orphan. Ultimately, however, the Red Label were the problem cars that damaged the Arnage reputation. The Arnage was originally designed for the 4.4 L, and VW shoehorning the 6.75 L into it simply because it had to quickly do something to replace the BMW engine, have caused those later cars to suffer problems.

As time has proven, the Green Label cars are much more reliable and robust and inexpensive to maintain than the later years. Yet maintaining all the same Bentley levels of refinement, interior appointments etc.

So, don't dismiss the 7-Series derived 4.4L version of the Arnage. It's an incredibly satisfying car and an incredible bargain. Otherwise, if you want the 6.75L, which does indeed have much more torque and HP than the Green Label, then just avoid the early years and go for a post 2003 (or post 2005 for newer body-style) R or T.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-13-2017, 10:22 AM
Formula Junior
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Full Name: Jim Smith
Posts: 894
kdf398 - His post is excellent and accurate from everything I've read (as I love the Arnage too). Good points and advice!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-13-2017, 06:50 PM
Bradwilliams's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,527
Thanks fellas. So you either go green label or 03 and up is the moral of the story. I'd probably be happy with either. The big motor would be cool but not for a daily. I do about 10k a year at the moment on the DD. If that drops a bit then it wouldn't be as big of a difference. The 03-05 models are coming down as we speak. Used car market is tanking. The 03-05 should be a great buy when they get into the 30-40s. I'm not going to buy anything for at least another year or two. Trying to drive this sucker into the ground first
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20160405_132913.jpg (66.6 KB, 211 views)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:48 AM
Formula Junior
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Full Name: Jim Smith
Posts: 894
Beautiful 7 series! Love that low beltline. Still one of the best looking full size cars around. They were built between 1995-2001 and they still look great, especially with the 18" sport wheels that yours wears.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-14-2017, 05:16 PM
F1 Veteran
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FL/AL/DC
Posts: 9,522
Love imola on the E38. Tan or black interior?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-15-2017, 09:05 AM
Pav's Avatar
Pav Pav is offline
Formula 3
Lifetime Rossa
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Full Name: Michal
Posts: 2,046
M-parallels give the E38 a sporty touch for sure, it might be even a M-sport version from the looks of it.
Arnages are expensive to maintain, this is not your regular E38 servicing, prepare to spend 3x more for a car that might stay 3x longer at the independent bentley/britcar workshop you‘d chose for servicing...
On the other hand the AC panel is the same as in the E38, so that‘s a funny touch.
__________________
Это Ferrari? / Нет, это Bentley
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-15-2017, 03:15 PM
Bradwilliams's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW.SauberF1Team View Post
Love imola on the E38. Tan or black interior?
Black. I actually wish it were tan. Black looks good and sporty from the outside. But when you're in the car it hides the style of the interior too much IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pav View Post
t might be even a M-sport version from the looks of it.
Arnages are expensive to maintain, this is not your regular E38 servicing, prepare to spend 3x more for a car that might stay 3x longer at the independent bentley/britcar workshop you‘d chose for servicing...
On the other hand the AC panel is the same as in the E38, so that‘s a funny touch.
It is the M sport short. I hear ya. I'm starting to think it's just a bad idea. I'm starting to look at the 560SEC as another option. Big body car (safe), plenty of room in the front and back seat and you still get a huge trunk. Those are the main boxes that I like ticked in a daily driver. I love this 7, and I'm driving it for nothing. But I just get tired of the headaches that surface every year it seems. Most tempermental car I've ever owned.

I need to get behind the wheel of an SEC or two. The only thing I'm afraid of is excessive body roll/boat feel in the steering. That was one thing about the arnage I hated and don't want to live with. I've heard the SEC is loose but not too bad.
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #9  
Old 04-15-2017, 04:09 PM
Pav's Avatar
Pav Pav is offline
Formula 3
Lifetime Rossa
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Full Name: Michal
Posts: 2,046
The 560SEC has an awful bodyroll, I had the opportunity to drive a standard 560SEC and my ex AMG 500SEL (LWB sedan) on AMG W126-dedicated bilstein-eibach setup on the same uphill road and it is like two different worlds despite the SEL being longer and heavier than the coupe.
Either way this is NOT a recommendation for you to look for a AMG W126 SEC, a replacement OEM AMG suspension kit will cost you around 9 to 12k euros + shipping if you manage to find it... and in most cases the suspension is tired on US-market cars, so there you go for big spending.
I absolutely love stupid luxury sedans and coupes from the 80s and 90s and have experience in ownership and maintenance - the piece of advice I can give you is:
1. anything rare in the 80s or 90s is going to be hell on earth to maintain because parts are simply not available, and on top of it, a rare car is good for collecting not for daily driving.
2. anything top of the range in the 80s or 90s like Bentley or Rolls Royce etc. is going to be helluva expensive to service even if the parts are available, because the cars were helluva expensive when brand new, and in most cases hand built cars have their own set of "small production engineering" issues, because in these transitional years we are talking about engineers just couldn‘t figure out how the electronic and electric components are going age and how to avoid glitches in daily drive use. That‘s the main difference between limited production hand built luxury and limited production hand built sports from these years. It is still the case today for niche manufacturers.

Best is to stick to big figure manufacturing, like your E38 or W140 Benzes etc. for daily drive usage.
__________________
Это Ferrari? / Нет, это Bentley

Last edited by Pav; 04-15-2017 at 04:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-16-2017, 04:54 PM
Rookie
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 44
As a satisfied long-term owner of an Arnage Red Label and Mercedes 560SEC I'd like to shed some light on these wonderful motorcars. The Red Label's cooling system issues are a bit overblown (no pun intended). In depth conversations with top Bentley techs and personal experience indicate that proper preventative maintenance prevents problems. Stay on top of coolant levels with the proper BMW coolant, periodically check the temp guage and avoid excessive idling in park. The original head gaskets do have a weak spot between several cylinders, but these cars are not ticking time bombs. I've only encountered two system failures: a cracked plastic radiator (weak spot on most modern cars including later Arnages); and coolant loss from a new coolant level sensor. We discovered that the OEM replacement sensor (made by BMW) is now made from a plastic that is attacked by the original-spec coolant. While the 4.4 liter Green Label is fun to drive, it lacks the true big-block Bentley feel and has a less refined low-speed ride. This contributes to them being the least valued in the Arnage market. No Arnage is cheap to maintain, so better to put money into the more valuable and desirable models.

The 560SEC does not handle like a boat, but you will feel some body roll while entering corners. This can be reduced by changing the size and type of tires fitted. The sensation fades as you power through the corner. I've found it to be stable in tight corners and very flat on sweeping bends at speed. Like the Arnage, it is an engaging driver's car when you push beyond the initial softness. The SEC also offers bulletproof reliability and is MUCH cheaper to maintain than a W140 or later Mercedes/BMW.

I disagree with the advice that an enthusiast should avoid either car (or top-end grand touring cars from this era). These cars are the stuff of legend, so people often have unrealistic expectations. If you understand what you are getting into and the associated costs, the ownership experience is rewarding and unmatched by lesser machines. Much like Ferraris, these cars aren't now and never were for everyone. They become more impressive the longer you own them, which can't be fully appreciated during a test drive.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-16-2017, 08:21 PM
bjwhite's Avatar
Formula 3
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Full Name: Brian White
Posts: 2,304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradwilliams View Post
Black. I actually wish it were tan. Black looks good and sporty from the outside. But when you're in the car it hides the style of the interior too much IMO.

Be thankful it's black, tan sucks. A red on black 740i M-sport. That is a rare and beautiful car.....the last gorgeous 7-series. I'd keep it to be honest....
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-17-2017, 06:22 AM
Pav's Avatar
Pav Pav is offline
Formula 3
Lifetime Rossa
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Full Name: Michal
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by exoticfan001 View Post

I disagree with the advice that an enthusiast should avoid either car (or top-end grand touring cars from this era). These cars are the stuff of legend, so people often have unrealistic expectations. If you understand what you are getting into and the associated costs, the ownership experience is rewarding and unmatched by lesser machines. Much like Ferraris, these cars aren't now and never were for everyone. They become more impressive the longer you own them, which can't be fully appreciated during a test drive.
Daliy driver perspective only. I love these cars, though I would never daily drive them. If I had an unlimited budget I would fill my garage with several W126s in AMG Lorinser etc, an Arnage, a RR Park Ward from the end of the production, AMG upgraded W124s, a L7 E38 and so it goes...
__________________
Это Ferrari? / Нет, это Bentley
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-17-2017, 12:44 PM
Bradwilliams's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjwhite View Post
Be thankful it's black, tan sucks. A red on black 740i M-sport. That is a rare and beautiful car.....the last gorgeous 7-series. I'd keep it to be honest....
I'd like to. And most likely will until it dies or at least 2 more years. Car is mint and clean as hell, sorted. I just hate the headaches and I know the 560SEC wouldn't be nearly as bad. As long as it doesn't drive like a total boat I'm game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exoticfan001 View Post
Stay on top of coolant levels with the proper BMW coolant, periodically check the temp guage and avoid excessive idling in park. The original head gaskets do have a weak spot between several cylinders, but these cars are not ticking time bombs. I've only encountered two system failures: a cracked plastic radiator (weak spot on most modern cars including later Arnages); and coolant loss from a new coolant level sensor. We discovered that the OEM replacement sensor (made by BMW) is now made from a plastic that is attacked by the original-spec coolant.
Are a lot of those parts interchangeable with BMW 7? I have the aftermarket aluminum radiator in mine so I never have to deal with that garbage again. Who on earth thinks it's a good idea to put a plastic radiator in a car? So stupid, and could only have been done to make people hit up your service department to get raped. If it is the same, then there is an aluminum upgrade available if you're interested.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-17-2017, 09:00 PM
F1 Veteran
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FL/AL/DC
Posts: 9,522
I agree that imola on black is a far better combination. Keep driving it until it dies.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-19-2017, 08:14 AM
Rookie
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradwilliams View Post
I'd like to. And most likely will until it dies or at least 2 more years. Car is mint and clean as hell, sorted. I just hate the headaches and I know the 560SEC wouldn't be nearly as bad. As long as it doesn't drive like a total boat I'm game.



Are a lot of those parts interchangeable with BMW 7? I have the aftermarket aluminum radiator in mine so I never have to deal with that garbage again. Who on earth thinks it's a good idea to put a plastic radiator in a car? So stupid, and could only have been done to make people hit up your service department to get raped. If it is the same, then there is an aluminum upgrade available if you're interested.
A bone-stock SEC has excellent handling on tires with OEM aspect ratio and speed rating. The problem is these are difficult to find now, so many wear taller, softer sidewalls which amplifies roll (along with worn suspension parts). Some owners switch to 16" MB 8-hole wheels to expand tire choice. Back when it was a new model I drove one with BBS wheels and low-profile Z-rated tires. I still remember being impressed at how this change made it corner better than a Porsche 928S4 driven several days before. It also seems easy to truly dial up the sportiness with a few suspension mods.

Arnage/7 series parts interchangeability is a good question. I'll have to ask my tech about this. Aside from a the climate controls and some sensors, I have not seen many BMW-sourced parts on my Arnage. I've read that the wheel bolt patterns are the same and saw a photo of a Green Label with 7 series wheels. I share your passion for the E38; it is one of my favorite big luxury sedans (sorry to hear it's been a PITA).

I agree with you 100% on plastic radiators -- just a shameless money grab by manufacturers. Thanks for the aluminum radiator suggestion. Where did you find it? I did investigate one sold by a RR/B supplier in England, but my service manager told me that they installed one and it requires much modification to fit. The extra labor and shipping made it cost more than OEM, so I went back to plastic. Hopefully it lasts as long as the original. Good luck with your car hunt!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:26 PM
Bradwilliams's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,527
Here's the company that makes them. They may know if the fit matches the RR and Bentley models.

https://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/...iator-1999-03/

http://www.flyingspares.com/shop/rol...3z0121254.html

Looks the same to me...
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #17  
Old 04-20-2017, 02:35 PM
Rookie
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Abu Dhabi
Posts: 44
I think a Lexus LS430 might be an interesting alternative. They have bulletproof engines and reliability, incredibly smooth engines and a very cushy ride. Fairly inexpensive to maintain for what it is and it won't spend too much time in the garage since it is a fairly simple car to work on. Build quality is excellent and the whole car feels very 'solid' or safe, which I think you would appreciate. Parts are also widely available and there will never any 'Bentley' tax when visiting specialists since it is essentially, still a Toyota.

But therein might lie an issue, it certainly won't be as engaging to drive as the aforementioned cars but I still think it is a viable option, but for some it might be too 'vanilla', all I can recommend is you at least give it a look. There are plenty of LS400s and LS430s still being driven on the roads in the UAE and that should tell you something given that Ferrari's are not all that rare here...
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:23 PM
Bradwilliams's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsieur Yoge View Post
I think a Lexus LS430 might be an interesting alternative.
Yeah I hear ya. I just haven't had a Lexus I liked since I owned the LS400 first gen. That's the only Lexus I would ever consider again, and the clean ones are starting to get hard to come by. I had a mint 91 with the nakamichi system in it that I adored, then two second gen. GS4's that were pretty, fast, nice, but meh. Wouldn't mind having another LS400, perhaps a 93 or 94. That's the best car they have made, and will ever make. Everything over the top in the ergonomics, and materials used departements. That car still reeks of quality, and is an event, every time you drive it. An incredible machine.

I found a nice LS430 for a friend of mine that he loves. Funny, I hated the exterior style of that car when released. But it has aged surprisingly well. Not a bad looking car at all. Great buy for the money for sure. He got it for 8500 with just under 100k on it. Full service history, clean as a whistle.

Last edited by Bradwilliams; 04-20-2017 at 05:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 PM.


FerrariChat.com has no association with Ferrari S.p.A.
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.