Roof failure ... again | FerrariChat

Roof failure ... again

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by vjd3, Apr 24, 2016.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,562
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Vic
    Well, after a tranquil few weeks with no roof issues, it has resurfaced.

    To recap, had intermittent "roof failure" warnings in the past that seemed unrelated to actual roof movements ... would happen if going over bumps in the road, or immediately after closing the top. Dealer tried to adjust the latch, fixed it for a while, then it reoccurred. Checked it again, could not duplicate the problem. Sent it in a third time, they replaced a Hall sensor in the harness and we crossed our fingers. Was good for a few weeks. Car did not have any service history of visits for anything but scheduled maintenance before I owned it.

    Now, twice in the past 3 days, went to close the roof, action started, then got the "roof failure" message, trunk was unlatched but not open to receive the panel. Also got the "complete roof motion" messages. Windows would not move, top would not go further up or back down. Meanwhile, the glass, which was raised, sort of gently settled back down on its own. Finally got the windows to respond and the top went back up. Then was able to lower it normally and no errors. I removed the access panel in the trunk (behind the owners manual) and did not see any evidence of hydraulic fluid leaking there. Don't think it's related to the state of the charge on the battery because it had been on the charger for more than a week the first time, with the green light lit.

    This will be the 4th or 5th time the dealer has seen the car for this, and it's a pain because the dealer is more than an hour away. It's the only troubling thing to me about the car, everything else about it is terrific. I'm just losing confidence that they are going to be able to ever fix it. Still having trouble with the alarm system, if I don't disable the motion sensor before arming it, it will go off on its own.

    The dilemma for me is the warranty is expiring at the end of June. I was planning on re-extending it but don't really want to drop $10k on it and continue to have headaches with the top for two more years. So if I'm going to move on, now is the time. It's really the perfect car for me other than the top issues.

    Any words of wisdom? Should I take it to a different dealer? I have serviced it where I bought it and they are super nice there. But I'm not that much further away from another dealer.
     
  2. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Since your alarm system is also acting up, it appears you are having more than a roof problem. Two simultaneous electrical problems would tend to implicate the battery and we all know defective or discharged batteries cause a lot of weird problems in these cars.

    You need to own a multimeter and learn how to take readings off the battery to check its state before and after a drive as well as while the battery charger is hooked up to it. It is not reliable at all to assume the battery is OK just because the battery charger light is green. The standard Ferrari-label CTEK charger is a very basic unit and doesn't do very much very well. Your charger could also be defective. Even the best CTEK chargers are very cheap compared to the time you spend on these problems.
     
  3. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    As a former Cali owner I understand your frustration.

    I too had a few roof problems. Fortunately I didn't suffer amdented roof panel when one panel fell on top of the other. I too periodically checked for hydraulic leaks hoping to detect and prevent a problem.

    Ferrari didnt actually design the folding convertible system.

    Of course, as an owner that's no consulation when you are having a problem.

    Is it cheaper to trade up to a new Cali T with its 7 year service and 3 year warranty?
     
  4. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2016
    3,539
    Southern Europe
    Full Name:
    Mario
    That's very stressful because you never know when it will happen again. It only happened to me once on my Cali, I got a "Rood Failure" warning while opening the roof. At the time I remembered having read a thread with a fix and I followed it by opening the windows and than the door and than closing the windows again. It worked and never happened again.
    There is another thread here which apparently worked for another owner when "Roof Failure" comes up. It is quoted as the "FOB trick". Lock the doors and then press unlock-trunk at the same time while holding it for 30 seconds and if the car doesn't unlock repeat the sequence.
    I'm inclined to guess that this problem origin is electrical/electronic. As mentioned by 4th Gear the battery should always be fully charged otherwise computer electronic issues can happen.

    The Cali is a superb car and very reliable but as you know every Ferrari is unique and when this kind of things happen they are very annoying. If it comforts you in any way I also have issues with one of my other cars (from a very reliable manufacturer) a SUV I love and which I bought new by the end of 2015 and since than it has been to the dealer half a dozen times because of a dimmer electrical problem. They keep telling me it has been fixed but the problem keeps coming back again. They've contacted several times the manufacturer but can't fix it.

    I guess cars are like women when we love them we have to live with their defects............
     
  5. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,562
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Vic
    Thanks, folks. Live with their defects ... or, as Kris Kristofferson once told Willie Nelson, "The reason divorces are so expensive is it's worth it."

    I'm sure it would cost at least $50-60k to trade up to a new T from a 13 Cali, so while it would be nice, not in the cards at the moment.

    Will ask the dealer to check the battery again, although I think they already took a hard look at it last time. They have another Cali with the same alarm issue that they are having trouble solving. The alarm has done that since I first owned the car. It went away for a while but returned with a vengeance when they put the new Hall sensor into the roof wiring harness. The dealer does not think the two issues are related.

    I don't really mind just replacing the battery but my window to see if that actually solves the issue before ponying up another $10k is getting shorter, and it's starting to feel like Bullwinkle is servicing the car ... "this time for SURE." Not to disparage the dealer, they've been really good to work with, I think they are just mystified.
     
  6. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2016
    3,539
    Southern Europe
    Full Name:
    Mario
    Completely agree that when inevitable divorce is worth it but, this time paraphrasing Robin Williams "Ah, yes, divorce......from the Latin word meaning to rip out a man's genitals through his wallet"
     
  7. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,562
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Vic
    #7 vjd3, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
    Ran the car up to the Ferrari dealer, so they could take a quick look at the battery.

    They put it on a MidTronics EXP800. Results:

    OK Replace Soon
    Voltage 12.75
    Measured: 770 A
    Rated: 850 A

    State of health was about halfway on the meter. "Battery is approaching the end of its useful life. Suggest replacement."

    According to the service adviser, it probably will not qualify for a warranty replacement under Ferrari's guidelines yet. But maybe I can help it by running the top up and down a few times in the next week before the car goes back for its annual maintenance ; )

    Stopped by the nearby Porsche dealer on the way there and took out a 2015 Turbo S cabriolet. Great car but felt very German ... clinical, precise, much quieter, very fast but not as much of an "event" to drive it. Let the sales guy (known him for a long time) drive the California, he loved it.

    Asked him what he thought of the new 2017 991 (with the 3.0 liter twin turbos), he said personally, he prefers the normally aspirated 991. This reminds me of how much "soul" was removed from the 911 over the years, especially when the aircooled 993 was replaced with the watercooled 996.

    While I was waiting at Ferrari, they gave me the keys to their California T demo, so I took that out for a drive, top down. The car looks great, the interior is improved, better graphics and gauges (I like being able to monitor the voltage and the oil pressure as well as the oil temp and coolant temp), and the boost gauge is fun to watch. The radio is a vast improvement. That I covet.

    You can tell the car is quicker (I have a 2013 Cali 30), the handling felt tighter (I think it had the upgraded suspension package on it, high sticker car). But the exhaust is noticeably quieter, and the whine from the turbo is evident (as it is on the Porsche). People say it sounds deeper than the normally aspirated California but to me it just sounded a little quieter. Still sounds good. Missing some of that throaty raspy rippling sound with the backfires and overrun. The car felt a little more clinical. I don't doubt it's improved in almost every way but I prefer the rawer Cali 30 and getting back in mine and ripping a few of those "kapow!" shifts had me grinning. I don't think it would be worth the $50k or so difference to me. To be fair, the T only had about 700 miles on it and mine has 10k. So maybe it will loosen up and sound better with some miles on it.

    However, I put the top up and down without a roof failure warning, so there's that!

    Reslsted asking to drive the 2007 599 they had on the floor, and the 458 Italia. That was only going to cost me more $$$$!
     
  8. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2016
    3,539
    Southern Europe
    Full Name:
    Mario
    Very happy to hear that you put the top up and down without a roof failure. I believed that has saved your "marriage" for now and unless the problem will persist again a divorce won't be worth it.
     
  9. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,562
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Vic
    LOL ... I meant the top on the T. However, the top on my car behaved when it was at the dealer. Naturally.
     
  10. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 28, 2011
    2,447
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Keith


    Chances are you have two different problems. First happened whether roof action was engaged or not. Almost certainly a sensor issue or an issue reading the sensor (wiring or software).

    Replacing the sensor may have solved the issue only to uncover a second problem. As the roof is engaged in up/down movement, the roof mechanism is detecting a fault (pressure or motion-sense).

    The one intersection of those two issues I can see is a loose connector in the wiring. Wherever the connection is to the roof pump and motion sense and the roof latch may have a bad connection. The loose connection eventually results in a bad communication of status the computer reports as a kind of roof failure.

    But if the only failure reported actually happens when the roof is engaged up or down then it may be the actuator sensor is faulty... I expect the computer codes will help pinpoint the problem. Faulty comms results in "device not responding" codes versus a bad value response result when the device is going bad...

    Hope this helps!

    SV
     
  11. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,562
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Vic
    Thanks, Keith. Interesting analysis, I will pass that on.
     
  12. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Jes
    Are you lowering and raising the roof without engine running, or with engine running, when you get the roof fault? You probably want the engine running to avoid the load on the battery from operation of the roof bringing down the voltage... it likely draws quite a bit of current to operate the roof...
     
  13. BeachDad

    BeachDad Rookie

    Jan 10, 2016
    24
    Hey guys. Reading the start of this post sounded like my exact problem! I've had the car for about 2 months (used 2011 with 15k Miles). I've now had it in the dealer TWICE already to address the Roof Failure warning. It just happened AGAIN this morning after two good weeks. The dealer said it was faulty sensors....don't know if they were tweaked or replaced....but the fix never seems to last more than a week or so. Does anybody know if it's common for multiple sensors to be failing around the same time? I'm trying to understand if this is something that can actually be fixed or will just continue to be a recurring nuisance and inconvenience..... Any ideas?? Thanks
     
  14. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
    Full Name:
    Michael
    So Vic, any more news on your car roof problems?

    IMO, one of the strategies that should be employed for tackling difficult to troubleshoot problems is to make sure from the outset that the car's operating environment fully meets original specifications.

    I am convinced many sensor issues are caused by out-of-spec battery/charging system performance. Unfortunately, the factory does not specify exactly the level of performance required from these components. I have no idea how many CCA, state of charge and what voltage level must be maintained in order to prevent spurious and/or occasional sensor warnings and/or fault codes. Since the ambient temperature varies and any number of electrical systems may or may not be drawing current at the same time in our cars, the amount of current and the degree of battery performance required at any given time could vary greatly.

    So if your battery shows signs that it is no longer operating within original specs, I would just swap in a new, fully functional unit before troubleshooting other possibilities. The battery will soon need replacement anyway. BTW, thanks for mentioning the readings from the Midtronics EXP800. I inquired about this and I was told by a very well-qualified source that Ferrari uses the EXP899, which is a proprietary model that Midtronics only supplies to Ferrari. All the same the readings should be similar to those from an EXP800. This is the first time I have heard of the Midtronics and I think it might be very useful to own one if you have to troubleshoot electrical system problems... from one or more of these cars.

    One of the things that few Fcar owners seem to recognize is that when we bring our car in for service or storage at a dealer, our car may well not have its battery disconnected for good measure, get hooked up to a battery charger or be hooked up to the correct battery charger... set to the correct charging mode... for many days or even weeks on end. Problems can ensue with us being none the wiser. Some of us need to take a more pro-active approach to avoid having problems caused by their batteries/charging systems.
     
  15. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,562
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Vic
    The car went to the dealer today, actually. I will post what -- if anything -- they are able to figure out. I asked how much it would be to just replace the battery. The problem is, the top has been behaving itself the past few days, so it will be difficult to determine if they've actually fixed it. The service adviser did mention that Ferrari's test to replace the battery required the battery to be hooked up to the tester overnight, which we did not do when I was last there.
     
  16. RickLederman

    RickLederman F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2007
    2,828
    Swanton Ohio
    Full Name:
    Rick Lederman
    With over 60,000 total miles in three Cali's I only had one top issue, a bad hall effect sensor, replaced and all was well. I always start the car before moving the top up or down as the top mechanism hits the battery pretty hard. Are you starting the car first?

    Good luck as they are difficult to troubleshoot when they work :(.
     
  17. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,562
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Vic
    Always running and past the "check OK" point before I hit the button. They replaced a sensor last time but pretty much acknowledged it was an educated guess.
     
  18. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Vic, intermittent problems will always require some degree of patience to figure out but I have to reiterate, if your battery is a few years old AND tested as "replace soon" or less than 100% I would immediately replace it with a proper new and fully charged unit.

    One should always bring known system parameters back to specified levels before looking for other problems. Otherwise, the service guys may well be making more work for themselves. Shooting in the dark is a bad way to fix problems.

    When I had my car roof problems, they were caused by both a damaged and faulty AGM battery and a misalignment on the "passenger’s side telematics mechanism" which occurred when the car was originally assembled at the factory.

    Good luck anyway and let us know how you make out.
     
  19. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2016
    3,539
    Southern Europe
    Full Name:
    Mario
    Vic, last weekend I picked up my Cali after a paint correction and I was speaking with my detailer who has worked with a good number of Calis ranging from 2009 to 2014. He told me that when he opened my Cali top to correct the paint, he was praying no roof failure would happen because he had several issues like this with Calis he was detailing. He told me that one time a roof failure happened in a Cali while they were opening the roof for making a paint correction, the motion was not completed so they had to call the Ferrari dealer and took them one full day to fix the problem in order to proceed with the work.
    It seems that roof failures are not uncommon on Calis and they don't choose age which makes me think that there are some of us which are more lucky than others.
     
  20. RickLederman

    RickLederman F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2007
    2,828
    Swanton Ohio
    Full Name:
    Rick Lederman
    Interesting, I've stopped my roof in mid cycle quite a few times for various reasons, all with no problem.
     
  21. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
    Full Name:
    Michael
    #21 4th_gear, May 4, 2016
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
    Rick, it's OK to stop the roof briefly during its travel but apparently the hydraulic fluid will then eventually redistribute in the lifting mechanism and the roof could then fall, with a THUMP. This is what a senior mechanic at my dealer told me.

    I've also halted my roof on occasions to check out the mechanism and take pictures. It's OK so long as you don't keep the roof suspended "too long". In the cases mentioned by MDEL, the roofs are stalling in their travel. My roof was not properly aligned when it came from the factory. Apparently, 2 of the metal arms that slide past each other were too close and would catch as the roof was closing. This caused a build-up of tension in the roof which would then suddenly release... unfortunately this sudden release of tension caused the rear glass panel to overshoot its normal resting position resulting in its latch striking the roof panel, and denting it.

    It took a very long time (several repair attempts) to figure this out because this problem did not happen all the time. I think it was exacerbated by cold temperatures. Cali owners: if your roof makes a sudden jerky motion followed by a popping sound or a soft bang, you need to immediately check the roof panel for a dent(s). The popping sound is from the sudden release of tension caused by binding between moving arms in the roof mechanism.
     
  22. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,562
    Massachusetts
    Full Name:
    Vic
    This is similar to what happened on my last failure ... window was lifted, trunk not opened to receive it ... failure warning and motion would not continue. After 2-3 minutes of fiddling with buttons the window just sort of collapsed back down. I can see where it could have been damaged if the trunk had been half open, etc.

    No word from the dealer yet.
     
  23. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2011
    9,118
    virginia usa
    I had 2 cali a 2011 and 2013 . I had the roof failure issue on the 13 but it always went away with a recharge of the battery . even though i drove it nearly everyday It appeared that many days i was not driving it enough to fully recharge the battery and eventually the battery would discharge just enough but still ran fine.... It always worked at the dealer i assume because it was a long drive...
     
  24. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    I hope and assume that many of these roof glitches will have been solved .

    The Cali T seems to have many of these and other problems sorted.
     
  25. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,643
    Silicon Valley


    I would think so. Compared to other model Ferraris, Californias tend to be driven more, and as a result, any failures like these are more likely to covered under warranty. With that data and experience, Ferrari is more likely to correct systematic faults.

    Owners not driving their cars much is a likely cause of things failing after a relatively low number of miles, as Ferrari doesn't get expensive feedback in the form of warranty repairs until long after they're off the warranty hook. Imagine if a cooling system or engine part failed on a Toyota after only 20-30k miles, but were out of warranty because it took 7 or 8 years to accumulate that many miles before the failures manifested.
     

Share This Page