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  #281  
Old 08-12-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FFantastic View Post
No I meant the 7th but I know they have a more general presentation on the 8th
Thank you very much!
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  #282  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by FFantastic View Post
No I meant the 7th but I know they have a more general presentation on the 8th
I have been invited too but can't make it as I will be in China that time though, those who have seen the car (without engine!) assured me it to look a lot craftier, 2 back lights and 2+2, in short a on-looker in comparison with the current model, which became a bit dull (pardon me) over time.
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  #283  
Old 08-14-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by noone1 View Post
I have no idea what you're trying to say.

All CF > CF + aluminum > aluminium.
It looks like your grasped it.

All CF is better than a mix
I would also say all Aluminum is better than a mix (other than not structural panels)

All CF is not necessarily better than all aluminum.
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  #284  
Old 08-15-2017, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by technom3 View Post
I would also say all Aluminum is better than a mix (other than not structural panels)
Not for rigidity or weight.
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  #285  
Old 08-15-2017, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by REALZEUS View Post
Not for rigidity or weight.
yes. but rigidity and weight are NOT the ONLY the only things that matter when designing a car for the road. Not even close.
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  #286  
Old 08-16-2017, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by technom3 View Post
yes. but rigidity and weight are NOT the ONLY the only things that matter when designing a car for the road. Not even close.
Um, so what exactly are the downsides? I see none.

There is no indication that there are any problems at all. Aircraft use this construction, exotic cars use it (R8, Huracan, Aventador, Enzo to name a few), and even commuter cars like the BMW i3. Other than cost, there is no downside to using CF + aluminum over just aluminum.

It's more rigid, it's lighter, and it's most likely safer.

Last edited by noone1; 08-16-2017 at 05:36 AM.
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  #287  
Old 08-16-2017, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by noone1 View Post
Um, so what exactly are the downsides? I see none.

There is no indication that there are any problems at all. Aircraft use this construction, exotic cars use it (R8, Huracan, Aventador, Enzo to name a few), and even commuter cars like the BMW i3. Other than cost, there is no downside to using CF + aluminum over just aluminum.

It's more rigid, it's lighter, and it's most likely safer.
Enzo's chassis is full CF. I think he meant that there might be problems trying to combine the two materials. The only problem I can think of is the cost in case of an accident. Some say that ageing might also be a factor.
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  #288  
Old 08-16-2017, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by REALZEUS View Post
Enzo's chassis is full CF. I think he meant that there might be problems trying to combine the two materials. The only problem I can think of is the cost in case of an accident. Some say that ageing might also be a factor.
The Ferrari website says:

"Just 400 examples were built of the Enzo, which featured advanced composite bodywork and a carbon-fibre and aluminium honeycomb sandwich chassis..."

Regardless, there is no indication that hybrid construction ages poorly. They are building airplanes out of it and those are supposed to last decades.

Even if cars had problems 20 years later, who cares? Most cars will be junked in 20 years. No manufacturer cares about what happens to their cars 20 years later.
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  #289  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by noone1 View Post
The Ferrari website says:

"Just 400 examples were built of the Enzo, which featured advanced composite bodywork and a carbon-fibre and aluminium honeycomb sandwich chassis..."

Regardless, there is no indication that hybrid construction ages poorly. They are building airplanes out of it and those are supposed to last decades.

Even if cars had problems 20 years later, who cares? Most cars will be junked in 20 years. No manufacturer cares about what happens to their cars 20 years later.
LOL... yes... manufacturers will care if there cars that are 20 years old get a bad rap for the chassis essentially coming apart. The PR would destroy them. 20 years happens very very quickly. Do they care if the car needs maintenance? No... do they car if the car cant ever be driven again and is essentially totaled from just sitting... YES
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  #290  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by noone1 View Post
Um, so what exactly are the downsides? I see none.

There is no indication that there are any problems at all. Aircraft use this construction, exotic cars use it (R8, Huracan, Aventador, Enzo to name a few), and even commuter cars like the BMW i3. Other than cost, there is no downside to using CF + aluminum over just aluminum.

It's more rigid, it's lighter, and it's most likely safer.
Yes aircraft use this. Have you ever maintained an airplane before? Maintain a Jet for 3 years or just look into some of the larger inspections these planes get. It is absolutely insane.

Also, airplanes are designed for a completely different use. They are both transportation but weight is the enemy as it hurts efficency. Stiff is important... but lets be frank... they dont exactly have crash test ratings. If you have a catestrophic failure in the air... it doesn't matter what the plane is made of... the contents are still flesh and blood.

I am not following your argument/train of thought... or perhaps we are both missing eachother.

Truly my only argument is that people who say "ohh... its carbon... thats better safer and lighter than aluminum" are simply wrong.

Engineering it is what is important. The material matters of course... but using it to its strengths and ignoring its weakness will leave you with a horrible car.

Yes. Delam is possible. ANYTIME you mix materials... whether it is paint and bondo... drywall and wood etc... they all react to environment differently. Yes carbon is very stiff and by comparison aluminum is flexible. There are times when you need flexible.

If the best cars were the lightest stiffest cars we would all be driving areil atoms.

Or instead of airbags we would just have non collapsible roll cages, 5 point harnesses, hans device and helmets at every seat. But... thats not the case of the real world. The real world and product liability is not nurbergring lap times contrary to popular belief. Even on supercars.
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  #291  
Old 08-16-2017, 12:52 PM
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You're making the assumption that everyone is just sticking CF and aluminum directly together without any sort of treatment or sealing to resist galvanic corrosion.

These cars will last far longer than anyone will care to use them and the costs to maintain them will make them will be too significant to bother.
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  #292  
Old 08-16-2017, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by noone1 View Post
You're making the assumption that everyone is just sticking CF and aluminum directly together without any sort of treatment or sealing to resist galvanic corrosion.

These cars will last far longer than anyone will care to use them and the costs to maintain them will make them will be too significant to bother.
my concern is not galvanic corrosion.

Trust me... if there is a resin failure due to particular outside influences... there are going to be problems and major ones
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  #293  
Old 08-16-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by technom3 View Post
my concern is not galvanic corrosion.

Trust me... if there is a resin failure due to particular outside influences... there are going to be problems and major ones
Can you point to any CF cars in the last 20 years that have had this problem? I've never heard of any and there have been plenty.
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  #294  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:08 AM
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I've seen carbon fiber crushed when hit in the wrong direction and then it's toast. It's strongest in one direction given it's a composite vs steel or aluminum which maintains same strength in all directions. I believe they started toying with this stuff in race cars in the 80s and have learned through trial and error just like any new material. I trust it will continue to get better
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  #295  
Old 08-17-2017, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by DropNGimme20s View Post
I've seen carbon fiber crushed when hit in the wrong direction and then it's toast. It's strongest in one direction given it's a composite vs steel or aluminum which maintains same strength in all directions. I believe they started toying with this stuff in race cars in the 80s and have learned through trial and error just like any new material. I trust it will continue to get better
Last time I looked at an F1 crash compilation, their all Cf tubs performed perfectly. Way better than anything made of alu or steel... Nothing wrong in using it widely in road cars apart from one thing - manufacturer economics. The rest of their commentary on this topic is purely their marketing departments spin.
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  #296  
Old 08-17-2017, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by technom3 View Post
my concern is not galvanic corrosion.

Trust me... if there is a resin failure due to particular outside influences... there are going to be problems and major ones
Why don't you stop the vague talk of doom and give us some proper evidence to back up your "major problems"?
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  #297  
Old 08-17-2017, 06:12 AM
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And more news on the Cali replacement?


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  #298  
Old 08-17-2017, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MRJW View Post
And more news on the Cali replacement?


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What - and stop this CF v aluminum chat???
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  #299  
Old 08-17-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by subirg View Post
Last time I looked at an F1 crash compilation, their all Cf tubs performed perfectly. Way better than anything made of alu or steel... Nothing wrong in using it widely in road cars apart from one thing - manufacturer economics. The rest of their commentary on this topic is purely their marketing departments spin.
Guess I should have clarified, wasn't saying it isn't safe, just that it's a bummer that it's not easily repairable
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  #300  
Old 08-17-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MRJW View Post
And more news on the Cali replacement?


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Originally Posted by timothymunro View Post
What - and stop this CF v aluminum chat???
Hilarious

This kind of chat always happens when nothing new is coming to the table
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