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View Poll Results: Would you be interested in running a Challenge car in a new series?
No...I like to track my car but not race it 4 10.81%
Yes in a controlled no wheel 2 wheel contact series 17 45.95%
Yes but it has to be all out, full racing 16 43.24%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 09-22-2005, 08:58 AM
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Who would be interested in racing a Challenge 348 or 355 or 360

If we can start some sort of Series on FCA events for example where owners of "old" Challenge cars can race their cars in a controlled manner (no car 2 car contact) who would be interested in running their Challenge cars in such series.

Also interesting how far would you travel for an event? Should there be a East-Coast / West-Coast series and then "finals" somewhere for the top finishers?
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  #2  
Old 09-22-2005, 10:43 AM
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Martin-
I'm too lazy to travel too far too often (especially since I live over 1,000 miles from where I keep it), but could be persuaded in the right circumstances.
Ira
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  #3  
Old 09-22-2005, 12:53 PM
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Well, I voted yes with no contact.

I would be very interested. Iím travelling from Texas to Homestead next weekend to run with CHRA. Although I donít think Iíd go that far very often, maybe once a year?

Rob and I have raced Challenge cars successfully in Texas with NASA, and I think Rob has something cooking on a Ferrari Challenge class here for 2006. I wouldnít do many East Coast OR West Coast events, but would do any Texas/Oklahoma dates.

Maybe a year end finale that would alternate from East Coast to West Coast??

Mark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavallino Motors
If we can start some sort of Series on FCA events for example where owners of "old" Challenge cars can race their cars in a controlled manner (no car 2 car contact) who would be interested in running their Challenge cars in such series.

Also interesting how far would you <a href="http://go-advertising.com?go=travel" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: travel';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">travel</a> for an event? Should there be a East-Coast / West-Coast series and then "finals" somewhere for the top finishers?
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  #4  
Old 09-22-2005, 04:00 PM
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Martin:

A bunch of us up here in New England have been bouncing around this very issue as we represent about 8 to 10 challenge owners. Try to hook up with Big head Dennis and he can fill you in

andy
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  #5  
Old 09-22-2005, 05:20 PM
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Interesting Poll.

Andi, I will do just that. I will also get together with Rob and see if we can put all this under one umbrella. Lets see how many show in Homestead next weekend.

This could be something. I believe getting together with the FCA and piggy backing on their events would be good. Maybe a seperate event under NASA is an option. Lets see what next weekend brings.
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  #6  
Old 09-22-2005, 07:44 PM
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A Ferrari Race Series would be great

A racing series that would be held during the off season (from FNA Challenge ) would be of great interest especially if the races were held in the southern US during the period between October and March. I beleive many snowbirds would look forward to racing there Ferraris instead of storing them.
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:06 PM
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  #8  
Old 09-22-2005, 08:41 PM
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I would be interested, maybe even interested in renting a car from Martin. the 13/13 rule is stupid in my opinion. PCA and BMWCCA uses it and it dulls everything down. Contact is part of racing........you have to accept it and run with a sanctioning body that enforces rules to punish those who don't abide.

Saying you want to limit contact or allow no contact is not realistic. It's sorta like the old saying you can't get "partially pregnant". Racing means contact on occasion or it's not racing.

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Jon
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  #9  
Old 09-23-2005, 08:02 AM
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Jon:

I can't say that i agree with you. I don't know how much racing back ground you have, but it sure sounds like you have more money than racing experience. I'm not trying to flame you specifically, but your statements are part of the real problem with the current decline of the FNA Challenge series, the fall of Rolex cup, the pending failure of the new IMSA Porsche Cup and many others. If you look at participation of these events, they have fallen from 40 cars, to the current 20 and less.

Racing is not about hitting. except for all of the fans in Nascar that have come over from WWF. They (and appently others like you), don't want to see a fair competition, where drivers test their skill and show the ability to "make the pass" without pushing someone out of the way to do so.

As a competitive racer in several series, (on track 40-50 days per year) holder of 3 track records and 3 north Atlantic Road racing Championships, and am known to be one of the most aggressive drivers on the track. The biggest complement i can receicve is to have another driver say that he or she can and would run with me all day. It's a matter of trust. I have never read a single competition rulebook that allowed contact. Contact only shows the Lack Of Skill of a driver. No don't let anyone think that i am perfect, as I have been in 2 racing incidents where there was contact, although there was only minor damange to either car neither one of us felt cooler about it.

Concerning the 13/13 rule? inspite of it being in effect, i have raced in 6 pca races this year and on average 10-15%!!!!! of the cars get damaged at each event. At Sebring, it was 37 cars!!, Road Atlanta 26 cars!! this is out of field of 250 total. So without the 13, how big would that number be? Just another case of people with more Dollars than Sense.

Next time you want to race (if you do race at this time), I want you to think about putting your Wife (yes, mine also races and has multiple records and championships), little sister, MOM or Dad, girlfriend, boyfriend in a car too, then go out and think about being on the track with drivers that share your desire to slam you car into them to win an ashtray. Take your $60,000 challenge car out and get hit in the first 3 races, causing $30,000 in damage each time and tell the group when you will consider packing it in due to all of the idiots who keep running into "you"

There appears to have been a change in our racing socitey in the past 5-7 years, with the success of Nascar and it's willingness to bump a car out of the way, and we jump up and scream like it's a touch down. What's going to happen in another 10-15 years when all the kids that are watching the bump and grind today, get their chance to race. They will know nothing of skill, just how to do the "pro-bump" Are you old enough to remember the amazing passes of Lauda, Prost, shummacher, Fellows, Hill and all of the others that could actually "DRIVE" Did you see Montoya pass Alonso in Montreal???? Michael one the one day the the bridgestones actually worked?? once you start racing you look for moves like that, that's what will send a shiver through your spine, so much different than the shiver that went through my spine when i watched the open wheeled car slam into the fence last week.

Even with a 13/13 or some control, there will be contact and people will get hurt. Of the group up here that own challenge cars, i am the only one that races and i know not one of them will show up for a contact series. Heck, based upon the skill i see at challenge races, i would never drive in one, unless I didn't own the car or have the financial responsibility to replace it, as i know some unskilled driver with more $ than sense will punt me befoer the end of the day

Just my .02 lire

andy
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  #10  
Old 09-23-2005, 08:31 AM
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Great thread.

Martin, as I'm sure you've also read, CHRA is trying to start up a racing series with Ferrari Challenge cars and older Porsche cup cars. Several others have had this same idea, and you and I both mentioned to Rob of our interest. And I've independently looked into this too.

If this is something you want to pursue, I and several other Challenge guys in the Northeast would be very interested. There are some complicating issues, though.

1. We'd have to run at least with the 13/13 rule. Both Jon and Andy have weighed in with thoughts on it, but FWIW, I think that if we don't, you'll get very, very poor turnout. The current FNA Challenge series has low turnout in part because there is a lot of contact and drivers/owners are tired of spending $$$$ in repairs after each event. This would be even more true of the series you propose; nobody who just bought a 348 or 355 Challenge with his entire motorsport budget would look forward to spending $15k to fix it after contact. As for the effectiveness of the 13/13 rule, well, some organizations are draconian in enforcement than others - how much contact is there in a vintage weekend (as opposed to, say, a PCA race)? It depends on what the attitude of the organizers are, as well as the racers. This series would HAVE to be more casual, with owners looking to have fun and play with their toys, rather than committed to winning at any cost (as top levels of PCA racing seems to be these days). And this would have to be THE focus of the organizers.

2. Martin, I think that you'd have issues with having a series spread out too far. Here in the Northeast, most of the guys I know that would be interested would primarily like to hit Lime Rock, WGI, Tremblant, MAYBE Summit Point, Pocono, NHIS. VIR is probably the maximum distance, and I think you'd lose a lot of people at that point. So East v. West is probably too great at that; you may want to consider Northeast/Southeast/Central/West, or something like that.

3. From the FCA standpoint, I doubt very much that you'd get any official club support, mostly for insurance/liability reasons. There simply isn't enough interest to justify the club paying for insurance to cover itself. The idea of "tagging onto" an FCA event is interesting. It doesn't have to be an FCA event; I looked into this (casually), and we could do something with a for-profit organization like TracQuest or SCDA or PDA or something like that, where they run a traditional DE on the day prior, then share the second day, or something like that, to cut track rental costs.

4. I think it'd be relatively straightforward to get a turnout of 10-15, maybe 20 Challenge cars for an event in the Northeast (if the scheduling works out for everyone, blah blah). Another thought I had was to combine a race with a time trial, partially to offset track rental costs, but also to give those drivers with street cars a chance to participate in the fun (no cage required, etc.).

Just my $.02.

vty,

--Dennis
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  #11  
Old 09-23-2005, 10:40 AM
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Challenge cars can't run in FCA track events now? Or other car club track events?
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  #12  
Old 09-23-2005, 11:10 AM
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I'm in for a series with an enforced 13/13 rule. Jon, I compeltely disagree with you on the 13/13 rule. I'm able to change the way I drive between 13/13 and "real" racing series, and race in both. One of the biggest reasons I've avoided the Challenge series is that it seems to have a terrible reputation as a crash-fest - if true, that's just stupid, and I'm not going to waste my time and money.
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  #13  
Old 09-23-2005, 12:20 PM
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http://ferrarichat.com/forum/attachm...hmentid=210966

Above are the forms for the FCA Roebling event. There will be at least two Challenge cars, my 348 and Dr. Cardell's 355, which happens to be very fast. Please feel free to attend this event! Savannah is great, the track is historic as well; also it is one of America's early road courses, and one of the early 1993 Ferrari Challenge demonstration sites.

The weekend prior to this is Brian Redman's Targa 66. I know there will be at least one 360 Ferrari Challenge there, not to mention other really cool cars.

http://www.targa66.com/

Martin, surely you can get one of your cars up here? Bring that BA 360 with the GT look. Write off the trip as a marketing exspence.
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  #14  
Old 09-23-2005, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1cerberus4u
Jon:

I can't say that i agree with you. I don't know how much racing back ground you have, but it sure sounds like you have more money than racing experience. I'm not trying to flame you specifically, but your statements are part of the real problem with the current decline of the FNA Challenge series, the fall of Rolex cup, the pending failure of the new IMSA Porsche Cup and many others. If you look at participation of these events, they have fallen from 40 cars, to the current 20 and less.

Racing is not about hitting. except for all of the fans in Nascar that have come over from WWF. They (and appently others like you), don't want to see a fair competition, where drivers test their skill and show the ability to "make the pass" without pushing someone out of the way to do so.

As a competitive racer in several series, (on track 40-50 days per year) holder of 3 track records and 3 north Atlantic Road racing Championships, and am known to be one of the most aggressive drivers on the track. The biggest complement i can receicve is to have another driver say that he or she can and would run with me all day. It's a matter of trust. I have never read a single competition rulebook that allowed contact. Contact only shows the Lack Of Skill of a driver. No don't let anyone think that i am perfect, as I have been in 2 racing incidents where there was contact, although there was only minor damange to either car neither one of us felt cooler about it.

Concerning the 13/13 rule? inspite of it being in effect, i have raced in 6 pca races this year and on average 10-15%!!!!! of the cars get damaged at each event. At Sebring, it was 37 cars!!, Road Atlanta 26 cars!! this is out of field of 250 total. So without the 13, how big would that number be? Just another case of people with more Dollars than Sense.

Next time you want to race (if you do race at this time), I want you to think about putting your Wife (yes, mine also races and has multiple records and championships), little sister, MOM or Dad, girlfriend, boyfriend in a car too, then go out and think about being on the track with drivers that share your desire to slam you car into them to win an ashtray. Take your $60,000 challenge car out and get hit in the first 3 races, causing $30,000 in damage each time and tell the group when you will consider packing it in due to all of the idiots who keep running into "you"

There appears to have been a change in our racing socitey in the past 5-7 years, with the success of Nascar and it's willingness to bump a car out of the way, and we jump up and scream like it's a touch down. What's going to happen in another 10-15 years when all the kids that are watching the bump and grind today, get their chance to race. They will know nothing of skill, just how to do the "pro-bump" Are you old enough to remember the amazing passes of Lauda, Prost, shummacher, Fellows, Hill and all of the others that could actually "DRIVE" Did you see Montoya pass Alonso in Montreal???? Michael one the one day the the bridgestones actually worked?? once you start racing you look for moves like that, that's what will send a shiver through your spine, so much different than the shiver that went through my spine when i watched the open wheeled car slam into the fence last week.

Even with a 13/13 or some control, there will be contact and people will get hurt. Of the group up here that own challenge cars, i am the only one that races and i know not one of them will show up for a contact series. Heck, based upon the skill i see at challenge races, i would never drive in one, unless I didn't own the car or have the financial responsibility to replace it, as i know some unskilled driver with more $ than sense will punt me befoer the end of the day

Just my .02 lire

andy

Andy,

Very good post and valid points. My post referred to unavoidable contact which is a result of close racing. I am not talking about the "pro-bump" or the turning we are seeing on a regular basis in Speed World Challenge and Rolex.

I have 7 years race experience with SCCA, Skip Barber, NASA and Grand Am. I've raced a wide variety of cars from Skip Barber cars (not the school the race series), Spec Racers (SRF and CSR), ITE, and ITA class tin tops. I have two amatuer road racing championships in tin tops and was co-driver for this years ITA class winning team in the 12 Hour at Summit Point with fasest lap.

I've raced in the MARRS Series (a bit south of you) and did a full season of Skip Barber.

I also raced karts when I was much younger.

I at one time owned a 355 Challenge and matched most of the lap times at Watkins Glen and Lime Rock (though that may or may not be an indicator my skill or talent).

Whether that qualifies me or not, I have had one incident in the past 7 years that invloved major contact (it was my fault). Other than that I have raced clean with little contact at the front of ITA/H4, CSR and SRF fields.

I was not implying that contact HAS to be accepted, merely that it will happen. The contact I am talking about occurs when two or more people are racing hard and seperated by only inches. I am not talking about deliberate contact to gain an advantage at someone else's expense.

My limited exposure to the 13/13 rule is that unless it's enforced people race no differently than without the 13/13 rule. The top runds of PCA look no different than Grand Am Cup.

Regards,

Jon
www.flatoutracing.net
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  #15  
Old 09-23-2005, 12:48 PM
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Joh:

I sent you a PM earlier, but for the rest of the group, again as i said, and to re-make the point, I was not specifically trying to flame you, but what "I" perceived was the tone of your statements, that there is an expecation to have contact.

If you are just confirming that with inches and competitive driving, contact can and does occur, I completely agree. It does happen. But feel strongly that it should not be encouraged or accepted, especially when you consider the costs to average guys who will be responsible to fix the cars.

We are presently going thru the budgeting exercise to run 2 cars in the Grand Am Cup for 2006, partically due to their tightening position on unsportsmanlike bumping and now bringing in cars for 5 minute stop and goes for such.

I can also say that i drive 99% as hard, if not 100% in a 13/13 race, than I do in an SCCA regional or national. 99 or 100 means that you do have control of the car. It's the guys who are willing to drive over their ability or justify spending the money on their cars to get the ashtray. I'm sure if you decide to try a 13/13 race, you will find all the excitement you find at any other race.

BTW, how much did you spend on repairs when you ran the challenge series? LOL!! or are you going to confirm that challenge cars never had any contact so, like Dennis, you can charge more for your car LOL!!!!

andy
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  #16  
Old 09-24-2005, 02:49 PM
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Jon, Andi:
both good points. I think the 13/13 rule is more of a guideline that car contact is not acceptable and should at all cost be avoided. Of course when we go out on the track we all know it can happen but over agressive driving in an amatuer class should be avoided.

dennis:
I am doing CHRA with my 355CH this coming weekend. I will see how many out there may have an interest. Rob had thrown that idea around just a few weeks before and I don't think it is a full possibility for just a stand alone series since track rentals are very high and insurance can eat you alive.

Since our track time is very much seasonal throught the Country a split series could work. Maybe find a good storage site in Florida and NE where cars can be stored for participants and have the car moved in summer to the NE and in winter to Florida.

Our FL calendar looks like this for example:

November (Moroso) Maranello Madness FCA
December (Sebring) Winterfest FCA
January (Moroso) Cavallino Classic
February (Moroso) Italia Fest
April (Sebring) Spring Spectacular FCA

So I see at least 3 races possible. Cavallino is out and I would not necessarily run Italiafest ever, after what happened this year.

I am sure we can get NASA FL to allow a Challenge race within their race series under our own rules. Running at the same time with others that also abide the 13/13 rule could be interesting. Lots of passing and being passed.

I will give you all an update after next weekend CHRA.
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Old 09-24-2005, 05:39 PM
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Moroso would be a pretty awful place to race. I've raced there. I believe SCCA is giving up on them for the winter national in '06.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCH
Moroso would be a pretty awful place to race. I've raced there. I believe SCCA is giving up on them for the winter national in '06.
I have a lingering soft spot for Moroso. It was the first track I ever drove, back in 2/79 when it was still called, believe it or not, "Palm Beach International Raceway"! Despite the glamorous name, the infrastructure was, to be kind, lacking.
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  #19  
Old 09-26-2005, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDAVID
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/attachm...hmentid=210966

Above are the forms for the FCA Roebling event.
I don't think these old women have the nads to race with the FCA guys...how's the weather in Savannah at end of October? Can you recommend a place to stay nearby? Someplace with that famous Savannah charm?
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:12 PM
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"I don't think these old women have the nads to race with the FCA guys"


Who are you talking about?

Anyway, isn't the Roebling thing a one day event?
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