Reco a good Gigondas wine? | FerrariChat

Reco a good Gigondas wine?

Discussion in 'Drink, Smoke, and Fine Dining' started by tomc, Oct 22, 2014.

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  1. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
    25,865
    DFW, Texas
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    Tom C
    Wife & I have 15th anniv. upcoming. We had a great bottle of Gigondas @ Range steakhouse, Harrah's in Vegas the night we got hitched. Name/year lost amid the mists of time. So, I was hoping for a good Gigondas reco from F-chat bon vivants. Price no object (within reason!). TIA...T
     
  2. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    11,968
    FRANCE


    I should let American members answer first, as I have no idea what could be available or not in Texas, but nevertheless…a few tips (perhaps others will join in)

    Assuming you are looking for a red Gigondas, the vintages to consider are the following:

    Truly exceptional: 1978, 1998
    Exceptional: 2000, 2005, 2001
    Great: 2003, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2011
    Very good: 2012, 2010.

    Should you be able to find a « Famille Perrin, Domaine du Clos des Tourelles, Gigondas 2011 », my guess is that it would satisfy your quest. It costs about 45 euros per bottle here.

    Other reputed names among others are: Château de Saint Cosme, Domaine les Gouberts, Domaine Notre Dame des Pallières...

    Rgds
     
  3. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
    25,865
    DFW, Texas
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    Tom C
    Nerofer...Thank you!! I will scour the Internet. Fortunately, our local retailer has a pretty good selection of wines & a searchable inventory...T

    p.s. I did not know there was wine from the Gigondas AOC other than red. So, thanks for that new knowledge as well!
     
  4. Steelton Keith

    Steelton Keith F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 19, 2009
    6,558
    Raleigh NC
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    Hi Tom. Our friend above did not mention 2007 and I think that is a sensational vintage that still can be found here in the U.S. in good wine shops. The grower/vintner/ Domaine is more important than the vintage of course. See if you can find this: Domaine Santa Duc 2007. Should be around $ 75. Will change your world if it has been stored properly. Sometimes it is helpful in the U.S. to rely on the importer if you do not have a reputable and knowledgeable wine seller. Outstanding importers in my opinion are: Kermit Lynch; Becky Wasserman; Robert Kacher; Neil Solomon. There are others of course. Domaine Clape is highly regarded in that part of the world and I believe they make (and I have drunk) a Gigondas from them. If I have the time I will dig around in the wine shed and see what I have. Congratulations
     
  5. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
    25,865
    DFW, Texas
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    Tom C
    Thanks, Keith!
     
  6. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    11,968
    FRANCE
    Yes, there is other Gigondas than red, although it is a very small percentage of the total production: Gigondas "rosé" is about 4 to 5% of the total production. The odds that you were looking for "rosé" was small, but you never know...

    Rgds
     
  7. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    11,968
    FRANCE
    #7 nerofer, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
    You're right of course: the old saying always works:
    "better a great wine in an average year, than an average wine in a great year".

    The truth is that, as you know, for the Rhone valley the subdivision in Domaines is rather nightmarish to say the least (it is also complicated for Bourgognes "up north" also; Bordeaux are far easier on that aspect). So either you are fully conversant with the hundred of different domaines, and you search by domaine's name, or you are not and you search first by vintage. The exceptionnal 1998 should be at the end of what can reasonably be recommend for their waiting period. After this, the risk of them having "passed" is rather high.

    On its whole, 2007 is not regarded highly for Gigondas here...as for Domaine Santa Duc, if the bottle you have in mind is the "Gigondas Prestige des Hautes Garrigues", the notes I have found say: "still a bit harsh and proud; should wait a few more years before being opened".

    Rgds
     
  8. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    Tom C
    Wow, this & the cellar thread is like taking a course in oenology! Thanks, for the education. I had never even heard of the concept of a drinking window before F-chat. Nerofer - these notes you refer to - are they your own, a book, local wine seller, or some other source? Definitely looking forward to my next trip to the wine store...T
     
  9. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    11,968
    FRANCE
    Well, that a difficult topic to deal with in a few short lines, but…here a few general principles...with the limit of my modest knowledge.

    Basically, there are no two wines that will age the same: the same wine from the same property, but from two different years might age differently, two wines from two adjacent properties from the same year might age differently, etc.
    Only the very first growths (for instance, for Bordeaux: the first five “premiers crus classés” from the 1855 classification after its modification, some of the “second and third crus classés”; the former “Saint-Emilion A”, etc…) have an exceptional potential for aging; but even with these, a very old bottle might from time to time proves disappointing, because the wine will be “past its prime” and have lost part of, or most of, its character: it will be old, but bland. The risk is small for those exceptional wines, but it does exist nevertheless.

    Of course, for wine to age correctly, much depends, as alluded to by Keith in his message above, on how the wine has been stored and preserved (that could be the subject of another topic…); also if it has been moved around a lot or not: again for instance, wines from Bordeaux accept rather well to be transported once or twice, but Bourgognes react more negatively to this: once in the cellar, leave them alone, don’t move them, don’t touch them. Bourgognes are also more of a risk than Bordeaux as for aging: they are more temperamental…a profitable aging for these is difficult to obtain, and is basically the result of luck.
    And of course very old wines cannot be opened, and then decanted, like young wines, but that also is another matter.

    So basically, “older” does not always mean “better” or “tastier”; almost every wine has a “window of opportunity” of one, two, three years during which it will be at his best, having blossomed fully but not yet beginning to decline and loose part of its flavor and character. Before that, it is too harsh, too proud, or not yet fully opened, after that it is past, bland.
    It depends from the property it come from, from the region, from the vintage…
    It could be indicated on the label (“will be best between x and x”, or “ability for aging: about ten years”) or this window of opportunity is described by most critics when they taste a new year: “should be able to sustain aging for about 10 to 12 years”.
    When reaching this optimum peak, they have to be drunk; unless one wants to try to let them age beyond the recommended date, but the risk very often outweighs the potential benefits: aging does not make all wines better. Anyone having a cellar with a few bottles knows that you must have a “cellar book” (un “livre de cave”) into which you write what you have in the cellar, and the “window of opportunity” for each bottle; and when a bottle reach that window, it has to be drunk.

    The way we drink wine has changed also, but in the past for instance there was a saying that forbade to drink good Bordeaux between their fourth and eigthth year, which was supposedly their “dark age”, when the complex process of flavoring has not yet begun; before this, they were young and could be drunk as young wines; but not between 4th and 8th year.
    We accept today to drink a lot of wines younger than what was accepted for the same wines forty years earlier. There are also wines elaborated today to be drunk when young, without any ability to age. But what does not change is that there is a period at which a wine will be at its best, and a date after which there is not much hope to make it better by aging more, but a great risk of it being lost.

    As for the drinking notes I was alluding to, these can be found in a lot of books, on internet, etc…there are a lot of persons asking by posting a wine’s name and its year: “is it time to drink “Chateau something 2003”?...because when the wine was put into the bottle, the main critics may have said “will be at its best between xx and xx”, but they might also having been too optimistic or too pessimistic, and it is always a good idea to ask those who have tried…

    Rgds
     
  10. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Nerofer...Thank you! You and Keith have given me an excellent place to start my explorations!...T
     
  11. Steelton Keith

    Steelton Keith F1 Veteran
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    Aug 19, 2009
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    Tom. I agree completely with Nerofer's posts. Wine is a living and breathing organism that continues to evolve in the bottle. The combination of the fermentation process, the yeasts used, the wine making style, sugar levels in the grapes and air (through the porous cork) can bring about complexities or disasters inside the bottle. You probably have heard about proper storing for age-worth wines...usually a constant 55 degree or so temperature, moist environment, and dark. Most of the world's wine is intended to (and is in fact) drunk within its first year or so of release. Many of the white whites, roses, and even reds are ready to consume when bottled...and many are better when fresh. The "drinking window" that we read about is a loose estimate at best since there are so many variables. Wines - even classic, well made wines from long aging grapes (think Barolo-nebbiolo) will eventually peak and start to degrade. In buying or drinking mature wines, a good guide is to check the ullage - the level of wine in the bottle when standing.
    In a high shouldered Bordeaux bottle, be careful if the wine level is below the top of the "shoulder". There are exceptions to just about any general rule when it comes to wine...one of the things that makes it fascinating. Cheers!
     
  12. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    Ullage?!? You guys are blowing me away! I had heard the words corkage & dosage, but not ullage! Thank heavens for Google. :)

    The good news is a local/regional purveyor (Specs) seems to have a reasonable selection of Gigondas in stock, including some from the labels and/or vintage years you & nerofer mentioned. Since weather this weekend promises to be gorgeous here in Big D, I may have to talk the missus into chauffeuring me around in her drop top Benz to various locations. I just wish liquor stores were open on Sundays! Oh well, I think it was Oscar Wilde who said, work is the bane of the drinking class! Thanks again, Keith...T
     
  13. tomc

    tomc Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 13, 2014
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    Tom C
    Bought a few bottles of this around Xmas based on some of the suggestions above. Cracked one open last night to enjoy with some prime strip steaks, grilled over charcoal/pecan wood. Great stuff. Thank you Keith! Thank you nerofer! Highly recommended....T
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