Math boffins, pit time question:

[VIZSLA]

Originally Posted by Far Out

The advantage - which I perceive, maybe it doesn't exist! - is when the team closer to the pit entrance is slightly faster. Not fast enough for their driver to 'regularly' overtake the other one, but enough for him to be already in the lane and thus forcing the others to hold their guy back if they don't want to risk the unsafe release.

Edit: And I'm scared by the potential multiple meanings of "unsafe release" which you imply

As the man taking the Rorschact test said. "but Doc, they're your dirty pictures!".

[wax]

Simplify . . .

1 car, not 2 cars.

1 car, 2 pit stops.
________________

Car pits for 3 seconds.

Lap speed, momentum, inertia, gravity is maintained, etc.

Car pits for 3.5 seconds.

Lap speed, momentum, inertia, gravity is maintained equal to previous stop, etc.

.5 second difference.
_________

Same thing if there were 2 cars.

.5 second difference.

[VIZSLA]

Originally Posted by wax

Simplify . . .

1 car, not 2 cars.

1 car, 2 pit stops.
________________

Car pits for 3 seconds.

Lap speed, momentum, inertia, gravity is maintained, etc.

Car pits for 3.5 seconds.

Lap speed, momentum, inertia, gravity is maintained equal to previous stop, etc.

.5 second difference.
_________

Same thing if there were 2 cars.

.5 second difference.

Must be the variable gravity that threw us off

[Peloton25]

If there is a treadmill in the pitlane can the cars still take off?

>8^)
ER

[VIZSLA]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

If there is a treadmill in the pitlane can the cars still take off?

>8^)
ER

Speaking of taking off.
Given their level of grip why not run a race on a suspended track shaped as a möbius strip?

[Fast_ian]

Originally Posted by Far Out

Your chance to return the evil stare now! In a duet with Steve!

A duet, or duel?

Back to topic, I find the idea of the article that Ian linked - the calculation of an optimal pit stop strategy - quite interesting, although I wouldn't do a Fuzzy approach. Is there any interest in discussing the topic in a more detailed matter? If yes, I'd dig out some lap time data tomorrow and sit down and think of how we could model it...

Sign me up! - It's a fascinating area for the geeks I guess! FWIW, my handy-dandy, super expensive timing app has all the data downloaded from the race. I'd need a lap chart to easily zoom in onto in laps etc, but reckon we've got a good starting place.

Originally Posted by Far Out

The advantage - which I perceive, maybe it doesn't exist! - is when the team closer to the pit entrance is slightly faster. Not fast enough for their driver to 'regularly' overtake the other one, but enough for him to be already in the lane and thus forcing the others to hold their guy back if they don't want to risk the unsafe release.

I believe you're correct - Cars 1&2 always get the first box and it goes down from there. If I'm, say, #1 and you're right up my chuff on entry I stop before you, and hence get going again before you and can thence block your exit. [All else being equal of course.]

Cheers,
Ian

[410SA]

I think it depends on the track regarding the most advantageous spot. I believe the current championship team get to choose if they the want the first or last pit spot and everyone else goes from there in order of LY points

[Fast_ian]

Originally Posted by 410SA

I think it depends on the track regarding the most advantageous spot. I believe the current championship team get to choose if they the want the first or last pit spot and everyone else goes from there in order of LY points

For reasons I can't now remember, I do believe you're correct - IIRC, at least Silverstone (& Indy?) were set up that way.

So, the question becomes, what's the advantage of doing it 'the other way'? If I'm at the far end, *and* I spend less time in the air than you, I can get out ahead. But, empirically, I still think I want to stop first and hence start first...... Does that change depending on the delta? ( I can't think why, but am going all Yoda on it now......)

..... Wheres Florian

Cheers,
Ian

[TifosiUSA]

This thread makes my head hurt

[mousecatcher]

Originally Posted by Far Out

That's the point. You have to remember that you're talking about a distance in time, while you visually process a spatial distance. The latter may vary tremendously while the former stays constant.

Yup, giving us the so-called (by SPEED anyway) concertina effect, where cars get spatially closer in braking, but not temporally (ie, time-wise, not a typo for temporarily) closer.

This is a good time to mention the illusion of a car "pulling away" from another out of a corner. At 1m/s, a gap of 1s = 1m. At 20m/s, a gap of 1s = 20m. If 2 equally driven cars accelerate out of a corner at these speeds, the lead car appears to be pulling away but even though he is strictly maintaining a 1s gap, he extends the linear distance by 20 times! It's the reverse of the concertina effect and often gives a false impression to the viewer.

As to the 0.5s thing, it's important to remember it's not just the time "in the box", it's the entire time in the pit lane that matters.

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by mousecatcher

Yup, giving us the so-called (by SPEED anyway) concertina effect, where cars get spatially closer in braking, but not temporally (ie, time-wise, not a typo for temporarily) closer.

Not just SPEED, David Coulthard must have used the word 5 times during the BBC's Sepang coverage.

>8^)
ER

[Fast_ian]

Originally Posted by mousecatcher

As to the 0.5s thing, it's important to remember it's not just the time "in the box", it's the entire time in the pit lane that matters.

Indeed. But the question is coming down to is there ever an advantage being in box #1 versus box #12?

Assuming they all hit the pit lane limiter at the same time, go the same speed down the pitlane, stop for the same amount of time and get going again, it shouldn't make any difference. But, it seems it does..... Florians comment that the early stoppers have a slight advantage by being able to block those further down makes sense, but I do believe there's a few circuits where the WCC chooses the last box instead - Dunno why, and I'd like to!

Cheers,
Ian

[VIZSLA]

Originally Posted by Fast_ian

Indeed. But the question is coming down to is there ever an advantage being in box #1 versus box #12?

Assuming they all hit the pit lane limiter at the same time, go the same speed down the pitlane, stop for the same amount of time and get going again, it shouldn't make any difference. But, it seems it does..... Florians comment that the early stoppers have a slight advantage by being able to block those further down makes sense, but I do believe there's a few circuits where the WCC chooses the last box instead - Dunno why, and I'd like to!

Cheers,
Ian

Better view of the pit babes?

[Far Out]

Originally Posted by Fast_ian

Florians comment that the early stoppers have a slight advantage by being able to block those further down makes sense,

I thought a bit more about it and came to the conclusion that the team closer to the pit entry doesn't even need to work faster. It depends on how close two cars have to be to each other for the FIA to decide that it's an unsafe release.

Let's say FIA thinks that if a car is released by the team while a car coming from behind in the pit lane is closer than 3 car lengths, it's an unsafe release.

Now two drivers A and B (teams etc. equally fast) enter the pit lane. They're five car lengths apart from each other, B is ahead, A's team is closer to pit entry.
When driver A stops, the distance grows. He accelerates again while B (with the longer way to his team) is still stationary. The distance decreases. The moment driver B returns from his stop into the pit lane again, their distance is again at its minimum of 5 car lengths, which stays like that. They return to the track in their previous order and distance.

Now if they enter the pit lane only 2 car lengths apart, their distance will be 2 car lengths again when driver B merges into pit lane again. Yet this is under our limit of 3 lengths for an unsafe release... penalty!

So: If the distance in which the cars enter the pit lane is smaller than FIA's minimum 'safe release' distance, the driver behind with the team closer to the pit entry can block the other one and overtake, even if the mechanics are equally fast.


Edit: Here's the rule - not very specific:

Originally Posted by 23.12

It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so. The competitor must also provide a means of clearly establishing, when being viewed from the front of the car, when that car was released.

[mousecatcher]

Originally Posted by Fast_ian

Indeed. But the question is coming down to is there ever an advantage being in box #1 versus box #12?

Assuming they all hit the pit lane limiter at the same time, go the same speed down the pitlane, stop for the same amount of time and get going again, it shouldn't make any difference. But, it seems it does..... Florians comment that the early stoppers have a slight advantage by being able to block those further down makes sense, but I do believe there's a few circuits where the WCC chooses the last box instead - Dunno why, and I'd like to!

Cheers,
Ian

There is an advantage to be first if you have a straight shot out of the pit box. Even without a straight shot, there's less chance of folks in front blocking your exit, or jumping you.

At Sears (IndyCar, not F1) and some other track I can't recall it's a disadvantage to be in the first box because it's an extremely tight exit onto the track. I imagine there are cases like that for the F1 tracks as well, but I haven't studied the box locations. I can't imagine why last would be better than say 2nd or 3rd though.