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  #61  
Old 03-05-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kraftwerk View Post
Along with Lewis..
While the deal might have enticed Lewis to MB I doubt that he drew Honda into the deal.
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  #62  
Old 03-06-2013, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rdefabri View Post
This was a special time for F1, as well as some tough years...those cars are beautiful IMHO.
Honda turbo at the Oesterreichring 1987, the best quality video of a lap in the Turbo era. At this race the Mclarens were entering the Bosch curve at over 220 mph. No resting on this track, all out all the way. (commentator is a little off on the gear selection)

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  #63  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinny Bourne View Post
The MP4/5 sounds fantastic!
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  #64  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny Bourne View Post
Honda turbo at the Oesterreichring 1987, the best quality video of a lap in the Turbo era. At this race the Mclarens were entering the Bosch curve at over 220 mph. No resting on this track, all out all the way. (commentator is a little off on the gear selection)

Nakajima onboard Österreichring 1987 - YouTube
Amazing car, amazing era. Great video.
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  #65  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny Bourne View Post
....At this race the Mclarens were entering the Bosch curve at over 220 mph.
Err, no they weren't.......

220 KPH.

Rose tinteds maybe?

Cheers,
Ian
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  #66  
Old 03-06-2013, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rdefabri View Post
Holy cow it's a bunch of gentlemen [hooligans] in a parking lot with Grand Prix cars!!!! :0
Going *very* slowly too IMO........ WTF?

The first guy was on wets.

The second guy was even slower.

I gave up at that point..........

Wanna see a balls out lap? - Here ya go:

https://vimeo.com/10427952

JYS -v- Ronnie at Silverstone was another, but I can't find the film - Anyone?

Cheers,
Ian

Last edited by Fast_ian; 03-06-2013 at 05:14 PM.
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  #67  
Old 03-06-2013, 05:10 PM
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Err, no they weren't.......

220 KPH.

Rose tinteds maybe?

Cheers,
Ian
Damned metric system spoils everything.
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  #68  
Old 03-06-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by VIZSLA View Post
Damned metric system spoils everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_ian View Post
Err, no they weren't.......

220 KPH.

Rose tinteds maybe?

Cheers,
Ian
6th gear flat out measured by radar in the turbo era 1200+hp in qualifying.

I watched the entire race live then and recently on YT, during the coverage the analysts clearly said that the 2 Mclarens were the fastest of the field entering the Bosch curve at 220 MPH! MPH not kph. The Turbo era was the most powerful and the fastest.

I attended many races then and saw what these cars could do. Similar speeds also reached at the end of the Mistral straight and start/finish line at Monza.


From wiki:

Österreichring track was known for being very fast, as every corner was a fast sweeper and were taken in no lower than 3rd gear in a 5-speed gearbox and 4th in a 6-speed gearbox, as well as noticeable changes in elevation during the course of a lap. Like most fast circuits it was a hard circuit on engines but more difficult on tires, because of the speeds being so consistently high. Many considered the Österreichring to be dangerous, especially the "Boschkurve", a 180-degree right-hand corner with almost no run-off area which, by 1986 when turbo's pushed Formula One engine power to upwards of 1,400 bhp (1,044 kW; 1,419 PS) in qualifying, had cars approaching at well over 320km/h (200mph).



Please read carefully;

Increasing speeds were also a concern at the Österreichring; during the final Grand Prix there in 1987 pole-sitter Nelson Piquet's time for the 5.942km (3.692mi) of 1:23.357 set an average speed record for the circuit of 159.457 mph (255.756 km/h).


160 MPH AVERAGE for entire lap, entered Bosch curve at 220 MPH


Get some new glasses 80's turbo era still rules as the best period of F1, drivers, tracks, engines, and the beauty of the cars
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  #69  
Old 03-06-2013, 06:05 PM
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"forget everything after"

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  #70  
Old 03-06-2013, 07:00 PM
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Just found this, wow, the ultimate candy shop


I had been looking for this


don't forget in these video's whether it's the Honda Collections Hall, Brundle at Silverstone or Hamilton, these cars are irreplaceable and old, they are not turning the boost up too far as they don't want to blow an engine or see it in the wall.

Last edited by Vinny Bourne; 03-06-2013 at 07:05 PM.
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  #71  
Old 03-06-2013, 08:06 PM
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Holysh!et at all those Macs! Indeed the candy shop.
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  #72  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:00 AM
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Vinny, thank you for the excellent write ups and videos. My favorite ERA as well, you should by the book the 1,000 HP Grand Prix Cars.
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  #73  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny Bourne View Post
....the 2 Mclarens were the fastest of the field entering the Bosch curve at 220 MPH! MPH not kph.
Fair enough. I stand corrected. However;

- Only very rarely have they been allowed to reach those speeds......
- I too (think ) I recall the era; While fast, the O'Ring was always the bridesmaid to Silverstone's bride when it came to *quick* laps. And I don't think they ever topped 220 at S/stone. (?)

Quote:
The Turbo era was the most powerful and the fastest.
Most powerful? OK.
Fastest? Not so much;

Quote:
Highest average race speed (winner) 247.585 km/h (153.842 mph) 2003 Italian Grand Prix ( Michael Schumacher)

Highest average lap speed (in practices) 262.242 km/h (162.950 mph) 2004 Italian Grand Prix ( Juan Pablo Montoya[5])

Highest average lap speed (pole position) 260.395 km/h (161.802 mph) 2004 Italian Grand Prix ( Rubens Barrichello[5])

Highest top speed 372.6 km/h (231.523 mph) 2005 Italian Grand Prix ( Juan Pablo Montoya[6])
Quote:
I attended many races then and saw what these cars could do.
Fabulous! It was indeed a great era. I particularly recall Ayrton touching 180 (mph ) on the *pit* straight at Brands! Not the long straight out into the country, the little (blind) one heading into Paddock...... Awe inspiring. Not so much the top speed, but the speed at which he got there!

Quote:
Get some new glasses 80's turbo era still rules as the best period of F1, drivers, tracks, engines, and the beauty of the cars
New glasses installed.

"Best", "Beauty", etc remains in the eye of the beholder of course.

Cheers,
Ian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_records#Race_records
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  #74  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:25 AM
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Talking

Ian, you are one cool guy! Great Post!
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  #75  
Old 03-07-2013, 01:38 AM
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That would be great.
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  #76  
Old 03-07-2013, 08:21 AM
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Ian, great post.

Shows what the true titans of this sport were...the mid 2000s V10 cars. I know for a fact that the old turbo cars would be destroyed by them and I sincerely doubt the new ones will touch any of their records.

http://www.motorstown.com/images/mclaren-mp420-02.jpg

Last edited by TifosiUSA; 03-07-2013 at 08:29 AM.
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  #77  
Old 03-07-2013, 10:10 AM
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Good stuff Ian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TifosiUSA View Post

Shows what the true titans of this sport were...the mid 2000s V10 cars. I know for a fact that the old turbo cars would be destroyed by them
It's tough to directly compare the results of these different cars because of the different rules in effect at the times. During races the 80's turbos were severely limited in their power output whereas the 2005 cars were not. Not to mention better brakes and lightning quick auto boxes vs. manual shifting. Add in the higher drag from the wider tires and that says a lot.

But on a track like the old Silverstone I think I would go with an 80's turbo in qualifying trim. And if you said use the same chassis to pit engine against engine I would again take the 1986 turbo.

Above we have Berger, Brundle, Clarkson, and Hamilton all saying the "titans" were the 86 turbo's. The V10's circa 2005 were very impressive engines, but I like the more powerful sounding lower revving turbo's.


Some comparison of numbers;

from F1 technical about 2005 season --"That same year, some 3l V10 engines were producing more than 980hp and running very close to the 1000hp mark, a figure that was never reached since the ban on turbo engines. It was a sign for F1's governing body to change the regulations as top speeds at Monza of 370km/h were deemed hazardous "


(source unknown)
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  #78  
Old 03-07-2013, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_ian View Post
And I don't think they ever topped 220 at S/stone. (?)







Fabulous! It was indeed a great era. I particularly recall Ayrton touching 180 (mph ) on the *pit* straight at Brands! Not the long straight out into the country, the little (blind) one heading into Paddock...... Awe inspiring. Not so much the top speed, but the speed at which he got there!

As we know these cars were not set-up to achieve top speed and there were many considerations. I found this about monza as I remembered -- "During the 2nd Qualifying session at Monza, Gerhard Berger's Benetton B186-BMW was speed trapped fastest of all cars at 352.22 km/h (219 mph)". Even though these were wider cars with wider tires which would incur a drag penalty it is simple math when you have 350bhp more than the 2005 engines.


Something else to appreciate about the Nakajima/Oesterreichring video posted above is that the Lotus he is driving was an ACTIVE suspension car. That is why the video is so smooth vs. the suzuka one you linked. The Lotus suspension is traveling a lot but the car is kept at the same ride height relative to the pavement all around the track.

Brands and this race in particular is a favorite;

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  #79  
Old 03-07-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny Bourne View Post
It's tough to directly compare the results of these different cars because of the different rules in effect at the times.
+1

"Difficult" is a definite understatement!

Tires, fuel regulations, circuit changes etc etc all impact it fer sure. It can't really be done, but it won't stop us trying!

FWIW, Monza is one of the few that hasn't changed a whole lot over the "modern" era(s) - It stayed the same from 76-93, changed a little in 94 and again in 95.

So, for ****s & grins I tabulated all the pole times since '76; Obviously omitted the "1 minute....."

Quote:
76; 41.35 Laffite, Ligier
77; 38.08 Hunt, Mclaren Ford
78; 37.530 Mario Lotus Ford
79; 34.580 Jabouille Renault
80; 33.988 Arnoux Renault
81; 33.467 Arnoux Renault
82; 28.472 Mario, Ferrari
83; 29.122 Patrese, Brabham BMW
84; 26.584 Piquet, Brabham BMW
85; 25.084 Ayrton, Lotus Renault
86; 24.078 Teo Fabi, Benetton BMW
87; 23.460 Piquet, Williams Honda
88; 25.974 Ayrton, Mclaren Honda
89; 23.720 Ayrton, Mclaren Honda
90; 22.533 Ayrton, Mclaren Honda
91; 21.114 Ayrton, Mclaren Honda
92; 22.221 Mansell, Williams Honda
93; 21.179 Prost, Williams Renault
94; 23.884 Alesi, Ferrari [Track layout changed a little]
95; 24.462 Coulthard, Williams Renault [Track change again]
96; 24.204 Damon Hill, Williams Renault
97; 22.990 Alesi, Benetton Renault
98; 25.298 Schu, Ferrari [Grooved tires, less aero]
99; 22.432 Mika, Mclaren Merc
00; 23.770 Schu, Ferrari
01; 22.216 JPM, Williams BMW
02; 20.264 JPM, Williams BMW
03; 20.963 Schu, Ferrari
04; 20.089 Rubens, Ferrari
05; 21.054 JPM Mclaren Merc
06; 21.484 Kimi Mclaren Merc
07; 21.997 Fred, Mclaern Merc
08; 37.555 Sebby-V STR [WET]
09; 24.066 McHam, Mclaren Merc
10; 21.962 Fred, Ferrari
11; 22.275 Seb, RBR
12; 24.010 McHam, Mclaren Merc
A few things kinda jumped out at me;

- The Scuderia hasn't been as "successful" there as the rose-tinteds would suggest!
- IMO, the FIA (and the TWG) does a pretty good job of keeping them somewhat "under control" - They get too quick and something changes to reign 'em in again - Always been that way and always will.
- We all have our "favorite" eras; Best looking, fastest, etc; Less than a handful of seconds around a ~100 second lap from "fastest" to "slowest" is indiscernible IMO.

I for one am (almost! ) sure they'll be there or thereabouts this year and again in 2014. They'll remain the fastest things round a road course - It matters not if pole is 1:20 or 1:25 IMO as long as they're close. And one thing is for sure; They're doing it with less expenditure and more restrictions...... So, call me Pangloss!

Cheers,
Ian
Source; Wikipedia of course.
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  #80  
Old 03-07-2013, 11:43 AM
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Honda could be back sooner rather than later it seems;

Quote:
The new regulations have got Honda going full steam ahead for an F1 return too.

Although it has not yet spoken officially about its future plans - beyond that F1 is a possibility – sources insist that it is well-advanced in its return plans having given the green light for a V6 turbo engine months ago.

A McLaren deal from 2015 is on the cards, but there are suggestions from insiders with good knowledge of the situation that the company could even be back as soon as 2014 with another team.

Amid all the controversy over the new engine regulations, and the focus of the debate being centered around how they sound, there are clear positives coming out of the new 2014 regulations.

Perhaps best of all is that new manufacturers are on their way back to F1, and even those already involved are hugely excited by what is happening.
I wonder which "other team" it may be? Fer sure, they're not going to want to only supply Marussia!......

Cheers,
Ian
Renault believes it deserves more credit for Red Bull title success - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com
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