A very Italian "American team"? | FerrariChat

A very Italian "American team"?

Discussion in 'F1' started by Igor Ound, Feb 6, 2014.

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  1. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    A Dallara chassis to start out with is a fair enough idea, but he cannot expect to move forward in the field until his operation is run as it should. If he gets the right people, and by right I mean he scalps every good engineer from every other team already out there, then he could get something going and potentially competitive in a few years.
     
  2. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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  3. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Veteran

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    Partnering with Dallara lends a degree of credibility that USF1 never had in their attempt (if one can even call it that) to build a chassis from scratch in Charlotte.
     
  4. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Agree, their initial involvement could prove technically valuable to a new American team learning the biz.
     
  5. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Hey! Charlottes got the best carbon fiber in the world! Windsor told us, must be true! :D

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  6. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    Usf1's twitter page is encouraging. They might be back. ;)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/USF1Team/tweets
     
  7. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    Ferrari engine and Dallara chassis, should run NART colors...
     
  8. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    I like this.
     
  9. tervuren

    tervuren Formula 3

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    If he could get some of the aero-geniuses in NASCAR to give F1 a go he'd have pretty good chances to. Those guys are highly creative in a very tight rules package - it'd be interesting to see what they could do with the *much* looser F1 rules.
     
  10. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    I don't really follow nascar so I cannot comment on their rule structure, but considering their cars quite literally do look all the same then I don't find it surprising that their rules could be tighter.

    I cannot comment with certainty noting the differences between nascar CFD guys and F1 CFD/wind tunnel aero guys, but I would think the concept of car and airflow around the cars is so different that a nascar aero guy couldn't easily insert himself into F1 minus some sort of shadowing or mentoring with someone already in F1. They're just massively different, but I could be wrong. It's hard to get more aero genius than Adrian Newey, Peter Prodromou, Geoff Willis, Bob Bell etc.
     
  11. tervuren

    tervuren Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2006
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    I can understand your viewpoint, and we'll likely never know, as there is no incentive to give up a good job in NASCAR to go to a F1 team that may not last.

    A major difference, is that NASCAR engineers are doing a lot more in dynamic design as opposed to static. Keeping an 800HP engine cool while pressed against another car's bumper is quite the aerodynamic feat. A F1 gearbox would be toast after 2-3 laps of near contact driving behind another F1 car, not to mention the more sensitive V6 Turbo/Hybrid/Recover powerplants F1 is running now. I can't go into details, but some of the aerodynamic work with the suspension systems of a NASCAR have been pretty amazing.

    I would imagine after 2-3 years, that they could hatch on something no one else in F1 has and have a very nice car for a season.

    Ultimately - I do not see a US team succeeding from a business stand point. To succeed in F1 today, you need a spare billion to burn with no possible return, and an additional 100-200M a year after - again, with no possible return.
     
  12. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    I had not thought of that! Great point. That type of dynamic testing isn't so much done in F1, rather the dynamic testing is done in very different ways and for different reasons as I understand.

    Agree, it will take about a billion. Even teams with massive sponsor capital have to front around a $100m a year. However, there is a supposed set of calculations some group of actuaries have come up with which interpret how much in advertising capital a race win is worth. For instance, Mercedes stated that winning Monaco last year was worth well over $50 million in advertising, and the MB brand as a whole has been doing nothing but growing at a large pace since they got involved in F1, how much of that has to do with F1 I of course have no idea.

    The difference for Haas might be, what is Haas selling to such a broad audience? Is he hoping sponsors will want to latch to his success? Ross Brawn could barely get sponsors with his world champsion team that won some 7 races in a row. Where is Haas going with this?
     
  13. vinuneuro

    vinuneuro F1 Rookie

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    American team is one thing, but I don't think one based outside Europe will have any shot at success. The obviously biggest hurdles are the operational and logistical ones. On the vehicle side, where are they going to get people that can produce a competent car. Dallara isn't a long-term solution. I can't imagine many people from Europe would be willing to relocate to the US to work for a start-up team, and we certainly don't have enough motorsport people here that are of that caliber.
     
  14. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    They'll do like Honda and Toyota
     
  15. LMPDesigner

    LMPDesigner F1 Rookie
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    The Nascar boys do about 10% -maybe 205 of the aero work the F1 boys do. And just about everything the F1 boys do nowadays is in the transient regime. Guys like Ferrari and Red Bull have 2-3 separate aero teams of 6-10 people working close to 24-7 on aero. One team goes into tunnel and does work while next is out and reviewing data while third is designing new parts. Ferrari uses 2 wind tunnels at same time.

    A really good Nascar tema will have one aero guy-maybe 2 and a couple of model makers and a couple of CFD people. So maybe 6 all together. Usually the teams use the resources of the MFG-but those resources are still maybe 6-10 total-tops-dedicated to racing.

    The difference in aero work is on the order of a full magnitude of effort. And Nascar guys would be lost in F!. As F1 boys would be in Nascar.
     
  16. trumpet77

    trumpet77 Formula 3

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    I like the idea of a US team. All this negativity sounds like saying the world is flat.
    Maybe that's why Haas wants to do it...just to do it.
     
  17. Isobel

    Isobel F1 World Champ

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    Should be able to purchase Fauxtus at auction this season. Toleman lives on !
     
  18. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I don't think it's so much negativity as skepticism..... I too would love to see it happen, and apparently he's already got a base in Brussels, which isn't Silverstone of course, but at least it's in pretty much the right time zone. IMO, trying to do it out of the States is foolhardy at best.

    Not a bad thought at all! ;)

    Probably the smartest way for him to get started. However, wouldn't he have to pick up their monster debt at the same time? I have no idea how such things work, but 150MM+ in the hole before you even start is a big ask!.....

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  19. Isobel

    Isobel F1 World Champ

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    Sir Ian,

    Would they have to assume the full weight of the debt ? My inclinations lend me to believe Genii would welcome any interest at this point and sell Fauxtus at 15% of standing value.
    In any case, a better bet than Dallara, who'd likely dig out the fossil designs they weren't paid for by Campos Inc. (aka HuRT) ;)
     
  20. ARTNNYC

    ARTNNYC F1 Rookie
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    Not to hijack the thread but does anything think the Mercedes team will be around in 10 years? Or even 5 years for that matter...
    As a publicly traded company how long until the shareholders say basta?
    Seems MB is dumping huge sums of money in the team to try and quickly win a championship and then say "we did it"
     
  21. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    As I understand it the team nearly pays for itself as they have massive advertising capital coming into the team (on the level of Ferrari). MB have been paying to build the team, but now that it's built I don't see their onset for such a large multinational and profitable corporation as being anything but minuscule. Since they started the F1 team they have nearly eclipsed BMW as the number 1 German car supplier world. How much of this has to do specifically with F1 I do not know, but I do know that winning races is equivalent to huge advertising capital (they said winning Monaco was worth some 50m+ in advertising). Why leave with the signs showing it's doing nothing but bringing position outcomes, even in their less successful start-up years?


    If they bag a couple championships I cannot see them going anywhere unless something tragic befalls the company and team. They are embedded in a big way with the team they have built, even more so than Red Bull. Mercedes had been looking for an avenue to enter F1 for quite some time, they started by buying out an engine supplier nearly 20 years ago!


    That being said, I have to wonder if Red Bull is going to be around much longer. A fizzy drink company in F1 is a far more questionable long-term proposition than a car manufacturer with a banging team beating Ferrari IMO. Now that Infinity/Renault calls them their 'factory entry' team I have to wonder if Renault may make a move on them to specifically take over, especially if Coke makes a move on Red Bull as a company......which I believe is coming in the next few years.
     
  22. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

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    In 2012 Ferraris net profit was 244 million euros (From: http://www.ferrari.com/english/about_ferrari/corporate/Pages/2012-financial-results-reveal-best-year-in-ferrari-history.aspx )

    In 2012 Red Bulls net profit was 311 million euros (From: Red Bull profits jump 40 percent to $406 million - Times LIVE )

    Based on those figures and the continued popularity of Red Bull around the World, I'd say Red Bull are in F1 for as long as they feel like being in F1!
     
  23. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    I read somewhere not terribly long ago that the energy drink market is still growing but Red Bull's market share has been consistently shrinking due primarily to Monster who has been gobbling up a large bit in this already growing market. Coke has a poor product and Pepsi might as well have no product in this segment, either of them will make a move on one or both of the above companies in the next few years is my guess. It's (Red Bull) too volatile at the moment to be around in their pure original independent owned form IMO.
     
  24. Neonzapper

    Neonzapper F1 Rookie

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    FIAT net profit: 4 Billion Euros
    Red Bull net profit: 311 Million Euros

    Comparing Ferrari's overall net profit to Red Bull's overall net profit negates the fact that Red Bull incorporates all the interests of the RB company- including the small faction known as F1 racing. Whereas, Ferrari is just that- Ferrari. Ferrari is part of a much larger group known as FIAT. Compare FIAT's net profit to Red Bull...or compare Ferrari's F1 venture to Red Bull's F1 venture.
     

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