Did Ferrari Sand-bag during Pre-Season Testing? | FerrariChat

Did Ferrari Sand-bag during Pre-Season Testing?

Discussion in 'F1' started by cmcclive, Mar 4, 2014.

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  1. cmcclive

    cmcclive Rookie

    Feb 17, 2010
    32
    As a Ferrari Fan, I am sure I am hoping this to be true and I am likely ignoring fact, but here are my thoughts:

    Most reports claimed they were low on power.
    Many, especially early reports said they (and everyone else was running at reduced power).
    My (hopeful) conclusion: They intentionally ran low on power to never show their pace. What if they are still running at reduced power to high their true advantage?

    They tried out lots of bits and pieces, but very rarely all at the same time.
    My conclusions: Obviously, they wanted to test against baseline, but there are only two reasons you don't test everything together 1) not enough time 2) trying to hide something. I would like to think that Ferrari ran plenty of miles to be able to test the critical parts they wanted to test, I my assumption is they avoided flat out runs with all bit and pieces on board.

    They had the fastest speed in the time trap:
    This seems to blow the lack of HP out of the water, but doesn't answer if they are having issues with energy recovery.
    Also tells us they likely didn't have lots of bits and pieces on the car.

    Reading the autosport live updates, I can't count how many times I read "Alonso set fasted sector X (usually 1, but I saw a few sector 2 times), but backed out for the rest of the lap"
    My conclusions: They intentionally didn't run full out on a single lap so as to not show their hand, but perhaps if we put together best sector 1, sector 2 and sector 3 it tells a different story? (I don't have the data, or time to compile, just a theory).

    My assumptions on the season (relating to Ferrari):
    Kimi will either kill the car or win the race, Alonso, will not push as hard as Kimi in the early part of the season, but will see the finish line more (I trust Alonso will only push the car as hard as he thinks is safe, while Kimi would likely keep driving with the car on fire, just different personalities).
    Ferrari appears to not be able to beat the others in the corners, and I don't know that they think they can catch them. Perhaps they are going a low downforce route, hoping to not loose too much in the corners, but be leagues faster in the straights? Obviously they won't abandon downforce, but I think they are trying to find a compromise (fastest in the straights, while quasi-competitive in the corner.
    I think they have a solid car, I think they will finish as many races as the other top (non Renault powered) teams, I think they will beat RB, but not sure on if they win the championship. I also expect Kimi and Fred to be competitive on the track (with each other), but hope they keep it to the track (and not bring it back to the garage).

    I just feel that Ferrari's pre-season testing was too lackluster, but too solid. They were never noticeably slower, but not "the best", Ferrari is saying they are second or third best, but appear to be unaffected by it. If they were going into Melbourne knowing they were third on the grid, I would expect more desperation. I am not seeing it. So, either they have already given up, or they are holding pocket aces.

    So, convince me I am wrong. Or if I am being too elementary let me know (perhaps my "revelation" are common sense to the more seasoned F1 fans).
     
  2. Tokyo Drftr

    Tokyo Drftr Formula 3

    Jan 18, 2009
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    They were definitely under the radar. But remember this was testing.
     
  3. NWaterfall

    NWaterfall Formula Junior

    Aug 2, 2009
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    I'll let you know in just over 10 days 5 hours and 35 minutes. Need to see Aussie qualifying first.
     
  4. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    May 10, 2006
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    They did not sandbag, and I do know they ran full power from their recovery and ERS system relatively little. Ferrari's energy cables were overheating in Jerez as was their MGU-H, this was altered for Bahrain but it was still getting too hot, but runnable. On top of this, Domenicali has stated they are not quite where they want to be so I put them being about third fastest at the moment. We do know they have power as they did hit nearly 340kph, it just may take a while for them to run it.
     
  5. RWatters

    RWatters Formula 3

    Feb 21, 2006
    1,075
    Kansas
    They set fast sectors (some being fastest of at the time) and would then back off. Alonso did it more than once. Their top speeds showed promise as well as Ferraripilot has said.

    Either they're hiding a big problem that doesn't allow them to complete a lap at full speed or they are sand-bagging.
     
  6. cmcclive

    cmcclive Rookie

    Feb 17, 2010
    32
    Yeah, I suppose this is the most accurate assessment. I am hopping for the later.
     
  7. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    Jan 6, 2010
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    I indulge this hope at the start of every season lately...
     
  8. CSM0TION

    CSM0TION Formula Junior

    Oct 14, 2004
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    This is everything. I really hope for the latter and really fear the former. What if Renaults problems aren't as confined to them as it's made out to be. Could be that Ferrari is better at keeping a lid on everything.
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    +1. Fernando set a purple sector 1 and then really backed out of it in sector 2 during this last test. Sector 1 is not a very technical sector relying on too much other than power is the only thing I might add to that.
     
  10. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Well, how does Ferrari's performance compare to other teams using Ferrari power units? None of them were in the top 10, which was dominated by Mercedes power units. Still, it's pretty obvious that Ferrari never put together an entire hot lap, but that could be true of the teams running Mercedes too (I don't have that data).

    Perhaps they weren't showing their hand. Qualifying will tell a much more accurate story, I think.

    Cheers,

    George
     
  11. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't understand the concept of sandbagging. Why would a team sandbag? All of them are working flat out to get the best out of their cars that they can anyway...so can someone explain?
     
  12. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 22, 2007
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    I agree sandbagging at this point or at any point, in my opinion, is just ludicrous. I would want to either dominate or say "Don't get too relaxed boys".
     
  13. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
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    agreed. i don't think any teams sandbag
     
  14. sindo308qv

    sindo308qv F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    All I know is, that if with two of the best drivers now at Ferrari, and Red Bull having problems, if Ferrari can't capitalize on this and have another underperforming car for the season, heads should roll, especially with the resources and money they have.
     
  15. tundraphile

    tundraphile F1 Veteran

    May 16, 2007
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    I don't see much point in sandbagging, everyone is going 100% at this point to get ready for the season and the ultimate pace is something that is valuable information.

    If they had a technical problem that prevents them from completing a lap that is obviously another issue altogether.
     
  16. tervuren

    tervuren Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2006
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    The primary point of testing is to gather data for potential need for changes. Its not a qualifying session or race.
     
  17. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Everything is relative. I doubt Ferrari has the same resources as a juggernaut like Mercedes-Benz. Plus, Mercedes powers 4 teams while Ferrari only 3 (and one of them is Marussia, so we could say 2.5) so that gives MB even more cash and testing data. I´d say that right now Ferrari is punching about their weight, as they had to do many other times although quite often this is not acknowledged.
     
  18. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,481
    Some say that Ferrari were not showing their cards. But also I´m reading around there that "reliable sources" claim that Mercedes right now could lap everybody else TWICE. Gary Anderson said that Williams is the team to beat. The usual internet BS at this point of the season.

    I think that lap times in testing are not a very reliable source of information but give a rough estimate of where each team is. We can guess that Mercedes is the fastest but not so much to lap everybody twice, because other Mercedes powered teams like McLaren and Force India should look better than they do.

    It´s not good to start a season playing catch up, but let´s hope that our guys are not too far from the top and can give a fight.
     
  19. ricksb

    ricksb F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2005
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    Teams sandbag in testing because they aren't really focusing on top speed runs. Red Bull was very effective at not showing their hand during pre-season. So was Brawn in 2009.

    Unfortunately, I don't think anyone was "sandbagging" per se in this test, though I do feel the cars are not yet fully developed, including Ferrari for the reasons Ferraripilot stated.
     
  20. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
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    Testing is just that - testing. There are no prizes for coming first and there are no prizes for showing your hand to the opposition. Anyone that claims to know the grid pecking order at this point is totally not credible and is a speculator. We won't know the true story until the chequered flag drops at the end of the first race...
     
  21. ARTNNYC

    ARTNNYC F1 Rookie
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    +1000%
     
  22. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

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    That is what I say about the NY Knicks every year, and nothing changes!!!!
     
  23. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    This season brings a special element that F1 has not seen in a long long time with these terribly complicated powertrains. Teams absolutely *must* know the capabilities of their powertrain during testing due to such experimental circumstances. It makes zero sense to sandbag during 2014 testing, whereas 2013 and 2012 testing sandbagging made all the sense in the world as the power units were already very reliable. 2014 though, they have everything to lose by only testing their units capabilities for the first time during Q3. That's madness.
     
  24. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

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    EXACTLY. BTW the championship is a marathon, not a sprint. Everyone learned something from the last test and will implement changes. Throw in the Pirelli wildcard (mid-season change that wildly favored RB last year) and who knows where it goes. One change can take a mid-fielder to the front as racing miles accumulate and more development occurs. I think the gaps will close VERY quickly, including whatever malaise the Red Bull/Renault are currently suffering.
     
  25. ricksb

    ricksb F1 Veteran

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    True to a certain extent, but I believe most of the teams were most concerned about the reliability of the car versus outright speed. They were learning a lot about the cars each day they went to the track. The most important lesson, though, was whether or not the cars could even finish a race.

    So far, only Williams can say they passed that particular standard with flying colors. Based on their pace and reliability, it would be foolish not to consider them as one of the early front-runners. That said, I still think we will learn a ton about these cars during qualifying for the Australian GP.

    Until then, we only think we know...
     

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