Electronics used by Ferrari in 1991...questions. | FerrariChat

Electronics used by Ferrari in 1991...questions.

Discussion in 'F1' started by SSNISTR, Jul 28, 2014.

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  1. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

    Feb 13, 2004
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    Hi guys, a question for those in the know in here about the 1991 car, the 643. I was wondering is any of you knew what, if any things were used on it. Namely traction control, launch control and ABS. I know they weren't using active suspension, but were using a paddle shifted gearbox...

    Any input would be great.
     
  2. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    As far as i know they only had the gearbox, first intoduced by barnard in 1989, nothing else. Active suspension only came in 93..and it was a disaster...
     
  3. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    Semi auto gear box With fully programmable shifts in 91
    no ABS or TC or Active

    engine mapping was just beggining then, no programable diff, or vectoring. in essence it was a real car - with semi auto box. - back then hydraulic / electronic not as sophisticated computer controled like today.
     
  4. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    What I figured, but what do you mean by "fully programmable shifts"? I thought the driver had to do all the shifting via the paddles? I thought the buttons for say 3 downshifts or what not came later?

    Also, how did the clutch work on the 643? Still on the floor, driver only uses it to get rolling then car takes it over?
     
  5. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    They could downshift more than one gear at the time, i remenber at Mónaco 1990 Prost prefered to change several gears at once, while mansell prefered only to change one gear at the time. The gearbox could be programed either way.
     
  6. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    #6 SSNISTR, Jul 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2014
    Humm, how would it know how many gears to do? By how long they hold the paddle for? Or was there an adjustment button or something someplace, that would tell it one or more gears on a downshift? This is only for downshifts I assume, not upshifts?
     
  7. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    I believe so, not sure about the rest
     
  8. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    In reference to what part of my reply?

    Thanks!
     
  9. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    great thread...the 90s car sounds really scary and challenging to drive..
     
  10. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Which is why they were so cool!
     
  11. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    I said i believe they could only downshift more than a gear at the time...the oposite makes no sense...
     
  12. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Either an adjustment button or programmed into the GCU (gearbox control unit). I believe the way that works is you drive a lap with the gearshifts you want to use and it'll automatically jump to those gears once the paddle is held. Works on + and - commands.

    I'm with Mansell though, I'd much rather do it myself (by clicking to each gear), probably because of force through habit (years of simracing) and change of situation requiring a different downshift technique.
     
  13. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    I see, that sounds like an interesting solution. The way I follow this is the driver makes a full lap, "programming" the gearbox. So then when he starts if the car needs four upshifts, one pull of the upshift paddle will give four shifts. Then if it needs two downshifts, one pull of the downshift paddle will give two downshifts, etc, etc. Am I correct? Unless of course the driver has selected full manual control...
     
  14. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    #14 SSNISTR, Jul 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just found this video from 1991, Prost qualifying at Monza in the 643. Looks like he is making most of the shifts manually with his hands flipping the paddles. I do however towards the end see him hit a button on the right side of steering wheel a few times? Anybody know what that does? I also attached a picture of a 643 cockpit, it shows two unmarked buttons on the right side of the steering wheel. Seems like the one he was pushing was the one on top with the "O" on it? I also notice on the dashboard, bottom left, a switch marked "down"...

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DWtBPYqelA]Alain Prost On Board Qualifying Lap Monza 1991 - YouTube[/ame]
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Almost. There will be no 4x up shifts by pulling the paddle once. It'll only work on downshifts.

    But in a sense, yes, the driver would drive a lap programming the gearbox and then it would know, basing on the amount of upshifts it had, how many times to drop a gear on only 1 pull. Systems weren't clever enough back then to know more (like the 599 GTO system, hold the paddle and it will auto downshift on the exact right moment giving the perfect engine braking...way to advanced for back then!).
     
  16. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    I have no idea as of yet.

    *My discription of the gearbox software could be wrong, I'm guesstimating on what is the most likely scenario of how auto downshift would work back then basing on computer tech at the time).
     
  17. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Got ya, so in 1991 (643) all upshifts were fully manual?

    Thanks for the insights!
     
  18. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Also, anybody know how the clutch worked in '91 on the 643?

    I assume foot clutch, as there is no paddle clutch from what I can tell in pictures. Driver has to use the clutch to get the car rolling, then the car takes over the clutch once the car is going? Yes, no?
     
  19. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    FWIW, all no more than WAG's, use at your own risk, etc....

    I'm not sure the TCU's back then were 'programmable' the way Bas is suggesting (no disrespect Bas ;)). I suspect more likely, given that they weren't 'seamless' as today, is that, eg, two quick tugs on the down paddle would cause it to skip the first, ie, in 6th, he's braking and hits down twice quickly it'll drop into 4th without engaging 5th on the way.

    Everything was "slower" (and the world was a kinder place) back then..... ;)

    Another WAG; That big old "O" button on the wheel looks like a kludge to me - possibly the auxiliary oil pump? They use oil, but don't want to overfill as that costs power. Hence for many years they carry extra in a separate tank and need to transfer it to the motor as needed.

    But I could be completely wrong......

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  20. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Both explainations sound good to me. The downshifting makes more sense for the first paddle shifted gearboxes as they used then too.
     
  21. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Interesting...:)

    I've read about the old gearboxes before and how they ''jumped'' several gears and where preprogrammed (the way I describe a computer surely would be able to do? It's a very basic adding and subtracting over maybe 20 corners at best!). I think my description was fairly accurate, but I could be wrong of course...There's a bit of beer blocking that part of my brain. I can't see why Mansell would have an issue with the car jumping a gear by quickly pulling twice (or whatever number) the way you describe it. It doesn't compute back to me, lol. But then again...Mansell was an odd chap ;).

    I agree with you on the oil pump, makes perfect sense and since it was a quali run, maybe they ran even less oil (it is a power circuit!) and he was pumping enough in at the end to prevent the engine ****ting itself.
     
  22. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    It would be a foot clutch. Ferrari switched to paddle operated clutch in 96 I believe.

    I'm quite sure that they only used the clutch to roll and stop indeed, but I'm sure Ian can elaborate.
     
  23. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    What I figured, let's see if Ian can give more input.
     
  24. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #24 Fast_ian, Jul 30, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
    You may be right, it's certainly 'technically' possible.

    But I'm a little skeptical as I'm just not sure the driver would want it shifting 2 gears 'by itself' based on some pre-programmed sequence. What happens if he comes up behind a broken car, or he runs wide and has to back out and the thing gets 'out of sequence' as it were?

    Indeed. You know better than to get me started on him again! ;)

    Again, just a WAG, but makes sense.

    I think Bas nailed it! :)

    Also worth noting though, I was out of the business by the mid 80's. All my experiences were with Hewlands & real gear levers & linkages..... No 'puters involved! ;) Damn, 'my' DFV's fuel metering was mechanical injection! [By the Prince of Darkness no less! :eek: ]

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  25. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    I was thinking this as well. My gut tells me in '91 the driver had to do all the downshifts himself, just like the upshifts. But only had to use the clutch to get moving or stop. Otherwise, it is done for him...
     

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