Honda F1 Motor - is public

A conventional turbo, although the asymmetrical inlet geometry looks strange to me.

Interesting:

All the talk about the engine putting out X power and needing Y fuel are apparently BS if they're only now assembling the system!

 

Doubt that very much. Makes me think we are being shown a drawing only. Plus it is a considerable assumption that the inlet side of the turbo is right there as it could be anywhere under that carbon air box ... we can only go on the reporters words ... yeah that is reliable .
Pete

 

So they aren't even copying Merc? Gonna suck then

 

Tough to say what the other half of the turbo is doing under all that carbon fiber, but I'm sure it's something clever.

 

Of course you're right about the turbo layout, we're only shown the turbine here! However, what I meant with intake is the exhaust gas intake of the turbine. The left bank exhaust enters the turbine housing in a 45° angle downward, whereas the housing inlet is nearly horizontal on the right. Balancing the flow with that configuration must be nasty.

 

I know nothing about the technical nature of engines. The article simply states they didn't copy the Merc set up. Or is that by no means definitive?

 

+1

A stupid statement at best. Not unusual.

Further, & maybe Florian will comment, but beyond potential 'packaging' benefits, why is the 'split' arrangement capable of producing more power? As long as the inlet charge is as cool as possible, and the plumbing is done efficiently, I'm not getting why it's an inherently superior solution?

Cheers,
Ian

 

I believe because the best possible way to ensure that the inlet charge is as cool as possible is to have it away from a heat source such as the exhaust side of the turbo. With a conventional turbo the heat has to transfer from the exhaust side to the inlet side. With the Mercedes layout that is impossible, or minimalised to as impossible as possible.

The other advantage is they have their electric motor/generator between the inlet and exhaust halves of the turbo. This means that the inlet and exhaust part of the turbo impeller does not have to have a shaft running through the air flow. With the Renault and Ferrari arrangement there has to be a shaft from the generator through the inlet side of the turbo surely restricting flow possibilities ?? This shaft access would also have to be sealed ... Mercedes don't have this issue at all .
Pete

 

Not trying to argue, but (why?) does it matter? A long as the sucker's spinning up to the maximum (150k rpm IIRC?) as quickly as possible, is a balanced flow needed?

In fact, and a total WAG here of course, is it possible an unbalanced flow could be beneficial? I can't think of any reasons why it would be (!), but very vague bells are ringing about high speed gas flow doing 'bizarre' stuff.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

Why thank you for such a glowing appraisal

 

Fair comments. Makes sense.

But, I would guess that with modern materials they could do a pretty efficient 'heat shield' these days (?) the whole mess is pretty toasty no matter what.....

I'm not sure why such an arrangement would restrict flow? Again, not trying to argue but rather understand why everyone seems to have arrived at the conclusion that the Merc 'split' setup is why they have more power......

Cheers,
Ian

 

As this is a computer generated image, they could be blatantly lying about their set up.

 

"As cool as possible" is the key factor here. Most of the heat transfer from hot exhaust gas to cold inlet gas happens through the turbocharger housing. If you seperate those two, you only have the minimal heat transfer through the shaft.

If I find the time, I'll measure some data at the engine test bed - one operating point, but once with a cold turbocharger and once with a hot one, and then we'll look how it affects the temperature of the compressed air. I suppose it will already be significant with a production engine like ours and, as we see in F1, a key factor in getting those few significant HP.

The exhaust gas does not come in a totally steady flow, but in pulses when the exhaust valves open and close. Thus the turbine impeller gets accelerated by those pulses and slightly decelerates when there's no pulse, leading to a ripple on the impeller speed. Apart from the mechanical stress this causes, the ripple also directly affects the compressor impeller, leading to a pulsed intake air flow.
You want to eliminate all that pulsation or at least get it as even as possible, which I suppose is difficult if the geometry for the two exhaust gas inlets are not symmetrical.

 

How can there be an "engine freeze" and someone can make a whole new engine? Seems a bit unfair.

 

Fair enough, thanks.

Would be very interested in any test results you can come up with. Enquiring minds want to know!

Possible, indeed, plausible!

But maybe they've done an asymmetrical design in attempt to reduce said pulses?

Cheers,
Ian

 

Very little is actually frozen right now. The other guys, with a years more experience can change a *lot* before submitting next years units to the FIA for homologation for next year.

Honda obviously also have to submit theirs to the FIA at the same time. Without any track time.

I don't think there's any unfairness there. If another manufacturer wishes to join in 2016, it's the same deal.

Cheers,
Ian

 

+1 agreed

 

That's what I was wondering. And I'm pretty sure McL is sharing data to Honda throughout this entire season.

 

Who cares, worse things happen at sea, the more the merrier IMO.

 

Remember we are talking about F1 here. Why Renault and Ferrari deliberately designed their turbos with these two restrictions I still cannot understand. Talk about lack of lateral thinking up in those engineering departments. Should they really be designing F1 power units? What other restrictions and compromises have they designed in because they cannot basically think?

In Ferraris case no wonder it took them so long to move to the disc brake and mid engined car, etc. Surprised they did not turn up with a side valve motor arguing that combustion chamber filling is not such an issue now because it is pressure fed.
Pete

 

Man, the guys who made those cars are dead.

Probably you think that the designers of the Renault engine are the same ones who made the first F1 Turbo in the 70s so they should be geniouses at this.

 

Just to add another point, a cooler compressed charge requires a smaller intercooler which reduces lag and makes for tighter packaging

Ferrari has a novel design by putting the intercooler in the V of the engine.