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Car removal tractors

Discussion in 'F1' started by PSk, Oct 6, 2014.

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  1. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    #1 PSk, Oct 6, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2014
    What other tracks drive on to the track run off area in tractors to remove broken down or crashed F1 cars? Sad fact is leaving the stricken car on the side of the track was considerably safer than driving an indestructable tractor on to runoff area.

    IMHO this is a barbaric process and should be halted immediately. Those tractors would be like hitting solid concrete and more importantly have very high ground clearance and sharp things sticking out (ladders for the driver to climb in with, etc.) that don't work with a low single seater.

    Is this a Japanese GP issue or shared with other tracks? I've never seen it elsewhere.

    The FIA need to remove them or modify them so they have their own safety skirt to prevent submarining and to provide a softer barrier.

    It would be safer to tow the broken F1 car away with say a Mercedes road car as that would be considerably better to hit. And if towing is not viable, then dragging the stricken car up on to a flat bed truck would still be preferable as that sort of truck is still softer than a tractor, especially if fitted with side skirts which is common on modern trucks.

    It is time FIA to make some decisions here. Tractors and single seaters simply don't mix.
    Pete
     
  2. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,483
    It´s common practice, they´re used everywhere not just in Japan. A few years ago in Canada a track marshall was killed after being hit by one of these (not meaning that both incidents were related and that cranes should be banned from all tracks).

    Agree in that changes are needed.
     
  3. maulaf

    maulaf Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2011
    1,422
    Cape Town
    ... and have a yellow flag zone until the remainder of the race?

    They do leave stranded cars here and there if they are parked out of the way.


    I think it was a freak accident.
    One way to look at it is what I have seen people propose elsewhere -> provide an electronix speed limit in a zone of danger. This might still be a tricky decision in rainy conditions but a more practical attempt and it would allow more safe vehicle recovery.
     
  4. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

    Mar 26, 2003
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    +1 Was there for that lousy end to the GP weekend.

    It shouldn't have to be common practice though. Race control needs to have more of just that, control. Whatever happened to the time when a red flag meant "stop in place"? Its ludicrous to think that a race car in a certain spot is considered dangerous but that a much more dangerous device is deployed. And as said previously, running a race when the medical helicopter can't be used should be re-evaluated too.
     
  5. Mon the fish

    Mon the fish Karting

    Dec 27, 2013
    116
    There were double waved yellows. That means slow and be prepared to stop. He obviously wasn't going that slowly to lose control.

    I'm not saying it's acceptable or nice what happened, but it sounds to me that the yellow flags weren't obeyed properly, resulting in a freak accident
     
  6. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,483
    Adrian Sutil said that it was too dark to see the puddles. It´s easy to do aquaplaning in those conditions even going slowly. Sometimes it even happens behind the safety car.
     
  7. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
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    Ian Anderson
    They don't (ever) run if the helicopters can't fly. That's a Prof Sid rule that remains in effect. Last time they didn't run was either FP1 or 3 in Austin last year due to fog, remember?

    Further, a medical chopper did fly soon after Jules arrived in the medical center - Led some sources to believe he'd been airlifted out. That was corrected and we know he was transferred via road. Reasons given were it was considered less dangerous and pretty much just as fast given a police escort.

    As for the tractors, they've been used the world over for as long as I've been watching. (And that's a long time ;)). Unfortunately, we've now had two terrible 'freak' accidents involving them in the past 2 years. Terrible, ****ty luck, but not enough for a knee jerk reaction IMO.

    Let's step back and look at the problem; when they crash, they can wind up almost anywhere and in any number of pieces, with or without the ability to be rolled around. They can't simply be left in place as it's only a question of time before someone else runs into the wreck. Sure, that may not be as bad as hitting the tractor, but they certainly don't want it to happen. So, SOP is to get them out of the way. Monaco is so tight they can do that with big ass cranes, but pretty much every other track on the calendar would need dozens of them given the real estate they need to cover. Not practical.

    "Dragging' a broken F1 car, using a car or whatever isn't going to buy anyone anything if another car hits it. How would they get it onto the flatbed without picking it up? These protocols have been developed over decades, and it's generally believed that even though they look 'slow' to us, they're far and away the quickest way to get stricken cars out of the way. They deploy, and can cover a pretty large area, pick the sucker up and get the hell out the way - Has been done hundreds of times without incident.

    Of course, the track at the accident location is under local, waved, double yellows. "Great danger ahead, slow down and be prepared to stop". It's incredibly unusual for them to fall off the road in such circumstances.

    It seems it was much darker than the tv would have us believe (that's another debate!). It had just started to rain, pretty heavily, again and Sutil believes he simply aquaplaned off (as he'd done on the previous lap). 99.9% of cases, no harm would have come. In this case it did. :(

    Very, very sad and terrible luck, but I'll maintain there's not a better way of doing it. Short of running behind the SC for the remainder of the race, and I know how well that would be received!..... Some here claim the SC is overused as it is.....

    As always, just my 02c,
    Ian
     
  8. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
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    Agreed. One of the Caterhams spun behind the thing just after the start!

    Should the SC have been deployed earlier? With hindsight, in this case, it seems that way. But again, the howls here that 'they're all *******, would never happened in my day' would be deafening......

    Charlie has one tough balancing act for sure. He's also *vastly* experienced and in the majority of cases gets it right IMO.

    Ian
     
  9. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

    Dec 12, 2005
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    I think this was just an unfortunate racing accident.If any blame its most likely the organizers who said they did not want to run the race earlier...

    but really its Bernie and FOM who set the time for TV... so enough to go around.

    the use of tractors and Cranes is mandated by FIA - cars are not to be left on the Racing surface or surrounding active race track. FIA rules have been amended to use of safety car periods to effect removal of stricken cars and repair of racing barriers etc... that has been in place for over 10 years now.

    Bianchi was just a very unlucky guy. some drives said conditions were bad, some said it was on the line but ok....
     
  10. SPEEDCORE

    SPEEDCORE Four Time F1 World Champ

    Jul 11, 2005
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    Let's not forget this race.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwCMwrbeo8]Formel 1 Crash 22.07.07 Nürburgring von der T4 gefilmt - YouTube[/ame]
     
  11. futureowner

    futureowner Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2006
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    Thad
    While I get that this was just a freak accident, would it not make more sense though in a situation like this to amend the rules to state that no cranes, tractors, etc be brought out to remove the car until the field is under the control of the safety car? Meaning that until the vehicles are in formation behind, no cranes/people can be brought out unless the driver is in need of medical attention. If you think about it, the reason the safety car is deployed in moments like this is because the location of the vehicle is dangerous, in the mean time you still have people racing to get caught up and you are adding more vehicles/people to the situation.

    Also to the comment around the darkness, remember, tv cameras significantly enhance the appearance of light and so what appeared to be not too dark on tv was more dark in person. Particularly I would think if you have a few LEDs on the wheel adding brightness in your eyes.
     
  12. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
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    Fair comments, but until they get out there, how do they know if the guy needs medical attention? And if he does, speed is often of the essence. Prof Sid mandated a doctor should be within a few seconds (less than a minute IIRC) of any location on the track. That's saved more than a few drivers over the years.

    Comversely, it takes many, many minutes for them to get lined up behind the SC.

    Agreed. But in most cases of cars falling off the SC isn't deployed. They deal with it all under local yellow. The track workers, doctors, extrication team etc all know they're putting themselves in danger, but they're there to help. Again, the unsung hero's of the sport.

    Further, and largely thanks to Prof Sid again, there are well defined procedures that they follow. These guys aren't some amateurs who haven't studied accidents. There are well defined 'best efforts' protocols defined and with which they're all familiar. Even marshal training has come a long way over the years. Mandatory training sessions ahead of the event, practice sessions for the extrication teams and so on.

    They're doing their very best. Unfortunately, freak **** sometimes (fortunately, rarely these days) happens.

    Agreed - it got very dark there at the end when it started raining again. With hindsight, the SC should probably have been deployed earlier. But again, just read back thru the race thread for many examples of folk whining that it's gets deployed way too often, how they're all *******, it would never have happened when 'men were men' and so on......

    Overall, Charlie gets it right most of the time. Can lessons be learnt? For sure. Hopefully such that we'll never see anything like this again. At least until some other completely unforeseen **** goes down. Which it will. Let's just hope it's rarer and rarer.

    Ian
     
  13. futureowner

    futureowner Formula 3

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    Agreed that Charlie gets it right most of the time and that this was a freak accident.

    The easy way I can think to signal a driver is alright and not in need of medical attention is to remove the wheel and raise your visor. I thought that was commonplace but maybe just in IndyCar? That is the universal "I'm good" sign, iirc.
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    We are forgetting that these cars are harder to drive slowly than quickly AND we are assuming that Bianchi did not slow down. I bet he did, lost downforce and lost control of the car.

    I'm sorry tractors are not the right answer without modification. They need skirts added to them to prevent submarining. This could be easily done.
    Pete
     
  15. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Possible. There's already been some #'s run (from the frame by frame) that suggest he was at ~80kph. So he slowed down some..... Also, it was getting dark and Sutil mentioned a river running across. That he most likely didn't see. They're so easy to aquaplane.... The vid Aircon posted illustrates it wonderfully! A bunch of them literally waltzed off the track into the fence. The best drivers in the world become passengers? Yep..... ;)

    Further, as mentioned before, wet gravel seems to accelerate them! :( I guess it doesn't, but they sure skid along the surface pretty 'well'!

    Indeed. Not sure yet that's the only option, but I'm sure they're investigating. I kind of like the Viz' idea that they investigate "smaller, lighter", less heavy duty models too.

    Maybe Pap can comment on if such a beast is available? I suspect the ones they're using are readily available. I'd guess they've got at least a dozen round the track, probably more. This is rental equipment of course.

    I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that this has never happened before though. And they've done it this way for decades. Rescued hundreds of cars. Most of the time under local yellow too of course.

    Let's hope they can come up with an improvement, be it 'skirts', more cranes, smaller kit, but I'm hopeful they'll get it right.

    Ian
     
  16. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2009
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    Ted
    In one of my past lives, I was an operator of an articulating front end loader. My loader was/is considered "small" (John Deere 544 series). Before the accident...I was actually admiring the "even smaller" loaders that they were using at Suzuka. IMO, based on my experience, I think they were the perfect size for the job...

    Go much smaller and, yes, it might (and that's only a might) get to the scene quicker...but, the recovery/return would take longer. The smaller the lifting device, the more unwieldy the same load becomes...a more unwieldy load requires the operator to act in a more considered manner. I don't believe there would be any net gain.

    Remember...sometimes they have to retrieve a car from the middle of a deep gravel trap. The appropriate tractor will be able to motor to the scene quickly without much regard for the pathway. Take that away and the recovery effort will take longer.

    IMO, make the tractor safer, not smaller.
     
  17. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    This would mean that around 50% of on track retirements (including wrecks) would result in Safety Cars--Yech.
     
  18. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Awesome post, thanks! All makes perfect sense to me, and your observations are a good insight. Thanks again. Hopefully, Charlie, the safety commission and the medics are asking the same kinds of questions as us! ;)

    Also worth noting that they often use much bigger rigs. Again, check out Aircons post! :eek:

    What they can get hold of maybe?

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  19. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

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    Ted
    It was also interesting to see how they picked up the cars...

    Obviously, they had no bucket...in place of the bucket was a small hook, almost like a short fork lift leg that was centered. The geometry was such that when the car was lifted high enough to clear fences, etc., the car was also hanging very close to the cab of the lifter...that is, the load was lifted up and back. The two gentlemen with tethers kept the car from rotating and hitting the cab. The net effect was a very stable rig with the load held high. With a bucket, the higher the load, the more tipsy the whole tractor becomes, because the bucket is always at arms' length.

    With the exception of protection for a subsequent crash, I think the tractor set-up is VERY well thought out.

    I think the focus needs to be on avoiding the whole situation. Keep in mind, most of the time it's a corner worker...not a tractor.
     
  20. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    I hope everyone calms down. Bianchi is in critical condition - that is terrible. BUT Auto racing is dangerous... this was a freak accident and you cant stop everything.
     
  21. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

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    I totally agree...but it is also a fact that there were contributing factors to the freak accident...some of which were related to choices made by humans. Much easier to see in hindsight, so the hope should be that race control learn from the situation and use the learning experience next time. Progress.
     
  22. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +1

    Further, it's great to have some true experts on the subject around IMO. Rather than rumors & guessing as we generally do (!), we're getting some good info..... The track workers and crane operators obviously know what they're doing. But there's always room for improvement. Can they all be prevented, of course not. It remains a denagerous sport.

    Regards,
    Ian
     
  23. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

    Jun 29, 2006
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    My brother manages one of the companies that rents this heavy equipment to F1 in various markets. There are a few very good reasons why the FIA use skip loaders like these and will continue to:

    - Speed -- The quickest way to pull a stalled car off the track is to pick up the chassis from a dedicated point and pull it back behind a barrier immediately. No other vehicle can do this so efficiently as one of these tractors.

    - Logistical cost -- Recovery vehicles must be rented locally by the dozen. The economics do not support building a fleet of custom F1-only recovery vehicles, transported around the world, to serve race tracks many miles long

    - Racing cost -- F1 cars constitute huge investment. The safest way to pull a car off the track without damage to it (since they are typically re-built) or the track (which would easily cancel a race altogether) is with a large rig that physically picks the chassis up.

    - Safety -- There are more than just racers out there risking their lives. A lot of marshals and corner workers have been killed and injured in the last two decades. They need protection and a small car dragging a crashed F1 chassis would have been demolished by Bianchi's speeding car.

    If anything, the safety car could've been deployed or a little less speed through a double-yellow zone could've had a better outcome. Until massive cranes like the ones in Monaco become technically or economically feasible, these are the best equipment for the job and risk much be accepted.
     
  24. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

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    I saw at least one high lift crane at Suzuka...sometimes a tractor is better, sometimes a crane is...more often, I suspect a combination of the two is the comfortable ideal.

    A sobering thought and proof that it's tough to find the "right" answer is: if that car had been dangling from a high lift crane boom (i.e. no tractor to stop the runaway F1 missile)...would Bianchi's car have taken out three or four marshals?
     
  25. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    Apr 4, 2010
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    Though, the local flag station changed from double yellow to green prior Bianchi's accident - see video:
    Fórmula 1: El vídeo del accidente del Marussia de Bianchi contra la grúa - MARCA.com
    Perhaps Bianchi could have been back to full race mode... To me it looks like a mistake by the marshals to change from yellow to green before the tractor had exited the run-off area. Hard to say if it was a contributing factor...

    Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery for Jules Bianchi!
     

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