What does the F1 "engine freeze" actually mean, how much is frozen?

Very interesting. Thanks for the tip.

On the face of it, not much id frozen for the first years.

I am wondering, though, if we will see the end of this formula. 2020 seems a long way away. There is so much opposition already, some of it from the main protagonists.

 

Hopefully the mods will merge this thread with this;

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/f1/455268-myth-engine-freeze.html

In any event, my understanding is that Ferrari & Renault want a chance to homologate updates (per the "token system") mid season.

Right now, they have to submit their designs to the FIA in (IIRC) early February. Then, no changes are permitted till the following February.

What they're asking for is a chance to issue an update mid-season. The "token" system (designed to contain costs ) remains, but at least getting it "wrong" at the beginning of the season doesn't doom them for the entire year.....

This probably makes way too much sense of course.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

Yep. No big deal, just an ongoing discussion.

Couldn't agree more!

The question seems to come down to 'how many opportunities should they have'?

I don't think it'll happen, but can you imagine the whines from Lauda should Honda come out with a world beater next year?.....

Part of me would actually enjoy that little 'about face'.

Cheers,
Ian

 

While many areas are modifyable they may have to pick and choose among them to keep under the "weighted" figure.

 

Yep, sure.

The more I get to (somewhat ) understand what they're trying to do here, the more I think they may have just about got it right!.....

Some stuff involves *major* changes and ergo *huge* expense. Bore spacing is an obvious example. Changing valves is another that means huge new tooling.

Beyond those basics (& a few other things), and within reason (the token system) they're pretty much free right now as far as I can see.

I'll don the flamesuit now and say what they're trying to do actually makes a lot of sense!

Cheers,
Ian

 

As always the devil is in the details. The weighting may be more restrictive than it seems. If not why would they be lobbying so hard?

 

I don't think they're lobbying against the weighting system. The guys that get it 'wrong' in February want a chance to put it right in mid-season I feel. (Or at least have a chance to get a little closer?)

They're still somewhat 'shackled', but at least no longer completely doomed maybe? Conversely, throw away the 'tokens', make it 'free', and then we'll really see some cost explosions......

I'm actually chuckling to myself about what will happen should Honda appear with 50hp more than the others next year.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

Any particular reason to think that its mid season flexibility that's the issue?

 

or you could circumvent the initial restrictions like Honda.

Learn from other peoples mistakes, endlessly modify the engine outside the rules and jump in midway through the boat race and storm to the top.

clever or foolish?

 

I think you are right; Honda will benefit from having miss the first year of this new regulations.
Honda had more time to develop his power unit, and also, without any test restriction.
I wouldn't be surprised if that Honda unit has been quietly gathering some mileage at the back of an anonymous sport car on some deserted track in Japan.

 

+1111

 

From what I'm reading, Merc believe they'll still have an advantage come the next homologation deadline, and can then maintain that advantage for the whole of next year.

Conversely, the other guys want another crack of the whip mid-season.

It's almost, but not quite, like the often claimed but rarely true, mid-season rule change.

I guess I can argue it either way;

- If I'm Niki/Toto I want to 'contain costs' by restraining an all out development war. Once homologated, no changes are permitted for the whole year. Easy to say when you've got the best unit of course....

- If I'm Renault/Ferrari I want a chance to correct my mistakes and catch up.

But, I don't think any of them actually want unfettered development from race to race. Then costs really would go crazy as I said before.......

Cheers,
Ian

 

You have to wonder if conventional engines with in season mods wouldn't be cheaper overall than these hybrid contraptions with the freeze.

 

Yep. Exactly what I've been trying to say for months!......

Yep!

Furthermore, Honda don't have a year of on track experience under their belt either. Sure, we can assume Uncle Ron has fed all the available data from this season back to them, but there is *no* better test bed than actual racing. Can't be duplicated on the dyno. Can't be duplicated, as some seem to think, by running the thing in some test mule on an abandoned airfield or whatever. Experience counts IMO.

Having said that, as I said before, I'd love for them to come up with something unique & world beating just to watch Lauda start *****ing for a mid season change!

Cheers,
Ian

 

Hey Gordon C, did you get out the bed the wrong ****ing side!

So what your saying is everyone except Mercedes has now gone back to the starting point because clearly Renault and Ferrari got their engine design completely wrong, not only mechanically but aerodynamically too. Perhaps you are not aware the overall engine packaging influences the aero efficiency massively. I bet most adopt the Merc design who are now one year ahead in development in both the aero and mechanical field.

Honda have an advantage ..period because they can adapt without ANY rules until they step into the arena.

Cost restrictions ...BS

 

Horner pushing for “simplified” version of V6



Horner pushing for ?simplified? version of V6 | News | Motorsport.com




...” unfortunately when a bunch of engine engineers are left on their own to come up with a set of regulations, they’ve come up with something tremendously complicated and tremendously expensive.”

 

Don't twist things to suit your argument, I said

or you could circumvent the initial (meaning :- existing, at the beginning) restrictions like Honda.

As far as I am aware Honda are / were not bound by any of the 2014 restrictions. They had an advantage by not making the mistakes that have blighted the other engine manufacturers

And how do you know Honda are not track testing, that is pure speculation on your part .

 

Honda is not developing a 2014 engine, they're developing a 2015 engine.

Well I hope you are not a Honda development technician!!!!!!!!!!

 

Do you honestly think Honda starting designing their engine this year!!

They possibly started way back in 2012 {with other} or earlier and have been developing it ever since, taking advantage of other designs along the way.

What advantage Honda have is that they can "modify their design" completely or start with a fresh piece of paper if necessary. As far as I am aware the engine isn't registered until 2015.

They may also have a better solution to MB, who knows? but it just doesn't lay with the engine design, many other factors influence how this unit is dovetailed into the next generation 2015 car.