Honda wins engine battle with FIA | FerrariChat

Honda wins engine battle with FIA

Discussion in 'F1' started by freshmeat, Jan 16, 2015.

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  1. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,257
    Looks like Alonso's chances at a 3rd WDC title might've just got a bit closer...


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    McLaren's new engine partner Honda has won its fight to be allowed to develop its engine during 2015.

    Formula 1's governing body the FIA has backtracked on an earlier ruling that allowed Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari to upgrade their engines but not Honda.

    The move comes after Honda expressed its unhappiness about what it considered to be an unfair situation.

    Honda will now be allowed to develop its brand new engine within limits explicitly laid out by the FIA.


    What can Honda do?

    Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari are allowed to change up to 48% of the engines they used in 2014 by the end of the 2015 season.

    This is defined by a number of 'tokens', which are assigned to parts of the engine on the basis of their influence on performance.

    Out of a total of 66 tokens, Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari can modify 32 through 2015.
    Previously Honda had been barred from changing any of its engine after it was approved for competition on 28 February.

    Friday's ruling will allow Honda to change a given amount of its engine calculated by the average of the number of tokens unused by the other manufacturers by the time of the first race in Australia on 16 March.

    In the example given by FIA race director Charlie Whiting, and seen by BBC Sport, he writes: "If the three 2014 manufacturers have eight, seven and five unused tokens respectively at the start of the season, then the new manufacturer will be allowed to use six during the season (the average rounded down to the nearest whole number)".

    Honda, which is the first new engine manufacturer to enter F1 for well over a decade, had been concerned that it was not being treated fairly.

    Its senior management flew over from Japan to meet the FIA on Monday to express its concerns at the situation.

    This followed the decision by the FIA to allow Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari to use their 32 development tokens over the course of the 2015 season, rather than by the originally intended approval date of 28 February.

    That came after Ferrari, who had the worst engine in 2014, pointed out to the FIA that the rules did not clearly define when the modified engines for 2015 should be submitted for approval.

    Whiting admitted in his note to the teams on Friday evening that that ruling left "unaddressed uncertainty" within the rules on the permitted engine development.

    The FIA's decision also takes into account the opinions of Honda's rivals that it had an advantage inherent in entering a year late in that it knew a target to aim for, because it was aware of the performance of the rival engines in 2014.

    By contrast, Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari were shooting in the dark before 2014, when the new turbo hybrid engine formula, with accompanying fuel restriction, was introduced.


    What number of tokens will Honda have available?

    None of the three existing manufacturers are expected to start the season with an engine that uses all 32 development tokens.

    Mercedes are in the best position, but both Renault and to an even greater extent Ferrari will leave substantial leeway to make major changes to their engine architecture during the season as they are both behind where they wanted to be in terms of development.

    It is unclear exactly how much Honda will be able to develop its engine, but the latest FIA ruling and the positions of its rivals mean it is likely to have a significant amount of development available.


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    Source:
    BBC Sport - Honda wins Formula 1 engine battle with FIA
     
  2. NJB13

    NJB13 Formula 3

    Jan 5, 2013
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    Toto Wolf has already said Mercedes will race with their 2014 PU at least until Spain. If true then Honda could expect about 20 tokens if Ferrari and Renault use most of their 32 by the start of the season.

    Of course, Ferrari and Renault may decide to race in Oz with last years engine effectively freezing Honda out.

    All these are ridiculous scenarios artificially induced by the stupid PU regs.

    Also interesting to note these is no semblance of the FiA legally justifying this change, it purely being done to favour McLaren.
     
  3. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
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    This is just bullcrap. Hope other teams challenge this decision.
     
  4. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Solomonic decision for a no-win situation.
     
  5. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Good ruling. Given Honda have zero race time and dreadful test so far. This is fair as others will have even more tokens to work with and Honda fewer. New maker in the sport should be provided some improvement opportunity to enhance potential competition. No major issue to me at all.
     
  6. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    +1 agree
     
  7. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Well said :)

    FIA's initial ruling was downright stupid hence the backtracking - IMO
     
  8. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

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    The engine freeze as a whole is stupid. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of Motorsport after all.
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Perhaps. I say 'bring it on' otherwise the excuses for why they cannot catch mercedes will go on for years. There are no excuses for them now.
     
  10. Kiwi Nick

    Kiwi Nick Formula 3

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    Can we get a contest going to select a new name for F1? Something like F-Politics, or F-Make a Deal, or F-?, or F-If I know, or F-Moving Target
     
  11. Kiwi Nick

    Kiwi Nick Formula 3

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    Didn't Renault have zero race time and an equally dreadful, if not worse, test, at this time last year. Now when Honda have fewer tokens to work with, that won't be fair so that will need to be changed too.

    What you are advocating is a sort of situational set of rules. If a team or PU maker does poorly, they get more development time. What is Mercedes start running away with things again. Should the other teams be permitted to go back to the 2014 minimum weight? After all their results were dreadful.

    Either enforce the rules uniformly, or if the rules are corrupt or unenforceable abolish them.

    This is a nightmare. As it looks now, a PU maker might never have to homologate its unit until the last race, and maybe not then if there is some loophole to be exploited .

    I say screw homologation, screw the tokens and allow unlimited development so long as the PU meets the technical spec.
     
  12. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    How 'bout F--- Bernie ?
     
  13. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    F'd Up.
     
  14. joker57676

    joker57676 Two Time F1 World Champ

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    F'd Every1



    Mark
     
  15. SWB

    SWB Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2006
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    Seth
    The Piranha Club sure has a lot of whinging! F1 should never be about leveling the playing field for ANYONE. Maybe F1 should be renamed to 'Baby Formula' instead. LOL
     
  16. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    A new maker with zero race time. There is no threat here at all to the teams who have actual race experience with these systems. Its perfectly clear this ruling makes sense. In fact - crystal-- given that F1 needs more input/involvement from major producers to somewhat stay relevant and enhance competition and survival.

    The next clear step is to forget freezing PU development at all

    Overall good for Honda and the racing/show. Any maker who opposes this have no interest in competition for the good of the sport. They should all be pushing for open development given we do have some testing allowed. I see nothing wrong with this movement and applaud Honda for taking care of themselves. No one else will at all.
     
  17. asjoseph

    asjoseph Karting
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    ... nobody traces their roots in turbocharger technology further back, than Daimler-Mercedes. Maybe if they'd pull out of F1 a couple years, then re-enter, perhaps Renault could catch them. Most certainly not, Ferrari never will. Only way Ferrari will ever return to the sharp end the grid will be, preferential treatment, or regression to a retrograde formula.

    If it's anybody who can catch Daimler-Mercedes? Most certainly, Honda can. Indeed, they most certainly will -- asj.
     
  18. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Hope Honda gives Merc a run for their money
     
  19. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    +1 - Id like to see competition between teams vs another year of well....who will finish second(some other team) behind the LH and Nico Mercedes. I hope we have one other team actually challenge Mercedes for both titles. I fear we wont but F1 can certainly be surprising.
     
  20. asjoseph

    asjoseph Karting
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    ... Daimler-Mercedes' worst nightmare: Honda, on an equal plain, free to develop alongside the other manufacturers. With Michael Schumacher's F1 records in his crosshairs, Lewis Hamilton's worst nightmare: Honda, filling his rear view mirrors; getting his doors blown off, by Alonso and Button.

    Not a question of if, but when, it won't be long before Hamilton begins regretting not maling the hop back to McLaren while he still could, to nail down a few more championships with mighty Honda power behind him - asj.
     
  21. cig1

    cig1 F1 Rookie

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    In front of you
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    G
     
  22. ARTNNYC

    ARTNNYC F1 Rookie
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    I would not bet against Mercedes Benz
     
  23. IamRobG

    IamRobG F1 Rookie

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    I rarely agree, but this makes sense and could happen
     
  24. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    It would be nice to see Honda challenge Merc this season - It's what F1 needs
     
  25. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It would be nicer to SF challenge Merc!
     

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