Renault and Honda should be allowed to catch up

What exactly is he purposing? No more penalties? But would they still be allowed to compete for the same points in the championship? The end of the season payouts are based on how the teams finish in the standing, would it be fair to other teams like Lotus and Force India who followed the fuels?

 

Christian Whiner....

 

McLaren/Honda cannot even finish a race? What kind of catch up are you guys talking about?

 

its the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion as we know.......

But, the short question - "Why should they be allowed to catch up"? - "Special "dispensation" because they haven't done as good of a job as Merc? After all, they are "allowed" to catch up - No rules saying they can't - Sure, there are rules (tokens being but the most obvious) that maybe make it "harder" than just throwing more bucks at the problem, but this mess is what they wanted......

"It's embarrassing"? Really? F1 is literally littered with "embarrassing failures". There's always been, and there always will be "backmarkers". [Is is probably one of the few that "remember" the ill fated effort from Mezzario for example! ]

Get yer heads down guys and try to improve! It's hard. It should be.

Now, we can debate all day about bringing back testing - I'd certainly like to see more Monday etc test days after races, but again the "stake holders" voted against.

They, quite literally, made their bed. Honda knew the rules coming in. Now they're whining? STFU and work harder!

Cheers,
Ian

 

These teams are basically completely out of the running until the new regs come along (at very earliest 2017), through no fault of their own. It's not Red Bull and Mclaren's fault their engine suppliers didn't build a decent engine, but even worse, are unable to improve said engine so that the teams have a hope of even competing for a good spot...I have little doubt that if the Torro Rosso had a Ferrari or even better a Mercedes engine they'd be fighting and beating Williams.

Mercedes knew a year in advance which engines would be run, and they're reaping it for all it's worth whilst the rest play catch up to last years engine, and at this rate they easily have next years as well. Well done Mercedes, you build the best rubbish engine there is, props to you. Now lets try and not rape what's left of the sport. This is Mike Tyson in his prime in the ring against a cripple. Sooner or later people are getting bored of him pummeling more cripples to death.

 

This wouldn't be an issue if there was any meaningful in season testing.

They all wanted, they got it.


Mark

 

I beg to differ here Bas; This is Mike Tyson in his prime versus the best the world has to offer...... They may not be good enough, but it is what it is - For a while, Tyson was the *best*. Right now, it's Merc.

Cheers,
Ian

 

How come he wasn't proposing this when they (Vettel) was always 25 seconds ahead of 2nd place?

Why didn't he let webber win some races?

 

But Tyson's opponents were allowed to go to the gym before a contest...

No testing and design freeze rules are the problem.

 

No they should not be given a "pass". You run what you brung and certainly Renault as well as Honda knew what they had agreed too and have the resources to fix the problems but there is a "teething" time frame, some get it right and some do not.

 

Very fair comment. Continuing the analogy, the dyno is their gym at present. That shows one thing, the action in the ring shows another.....

Right now, and admittedly this gets harder going forward with the formula, there's very little "design freezing" going on. You better spend your tokens wisely, or convince Charlie you're changing for reliability reasons (no tokens spent there), but you can improve.

Again, I too a am a fan of bringing back *limited* testing. No argument from me on that one beyond there shouldn't be dedicated test teams.

Cheers,
Ian

 

If you remember, it was a trade off between the teams and the FIA/FOM.

"More GPs each year, but less testing." That was Bernie's blackmail.

Bernie's raisoning is that he can sell GPs to the media, but no the testing days. It went from 12 to 15, and then 20 GPs each year.

Testing doesn't generate income for FOM, and therefore limits what the teams receive at the end of the year. It was a no brainer, really.

Now, of course, every one can see it was a wrong decision, just like the development limits. Only Mercedes rejoyces, because it is on top of the game.

 

In an engineering competition, which is what F1 has become, those limitations are complete anathema for most engineers and designers, because it's exactly how you fix problems: testing and developing ALL THE TIME.

Can you imagine car manufacturers, the aircraft industry, or the medical world being submitted to such stupidity?

 

They are allowed, they're just not doing it. What's next, force Mercedes to give them their designs?

 

I have no issues that if someone has the best car and it keeps winning. What I have a problem with is some have built good cars but are let down by an engine that's almost impossible to develop because of a token system that was put in WAY to early. Soon the designs freeze. And that's it. They have to spend their tokens wisely but how can they if they can't test their upgrades in the real world?

Because when they where winning it was because they simply build the best car. Others were allowed to upgrade their cars to try and close the gap, Red Bull just did a better job. Nothing stopped other teams implementing blown diffusers, and they did...

 

What, you think there are no rules in car design, aircraft design etc?

 

I just say there are no stupid rules PREVENTING testing and development in car design, aircraft design etc...

Unlike F1 where catching up is hampered by silly token rules, etc ...

 

Right. I think now it's a combination of the silly grid penalties and the still baffling engine design rule change. Renault is struggling one year out. Honda as a hybrid pioneer, is struggling in it's first year. The lack of testing and the scientific practice of test and evaluation are stifling. It favors the teams with the deepest pockets and past design effort. Mercedes has a two year advantage now over everyone except Ferrari. They were the only team to close on them over the winter brake. That is the only time when one can make even a tactical move when it should be the time for strategy from year to year. The guys on NBCSN came to a good proposal about the grid penalties. How can a grid penalty be larger than the field? That's insane! Testing should be allowed too. I think that was a giveaway to fuel efficiency and conservation groups. Now that we have these awesome hybrid PUs, testing should be a tour-de-force of efficiency and impressive statistics. I think Kimi's rear end troubles are hampered by the lack of testing. I think the car got light over that rise on the track and was getting loose for a good bit before that. Alonso mentioned that. Also, I don't think Seb's DRS was working. I looked hard at the screen (1080p) and couldn't see it open at any time chasing Massa!

 

+1

 

I'm not sure the lack of testing has much to do with this. For sure, Honda knew it was down on power and reliability was an issue. Look at the DNF's. Those are blown opportunities to get real world data. They've known about their lack of power and reliability for some time -- before the season started. They put this PU in last year's car and tested it extensively. Putting a few new aero pieces on the current car isn't going to solve Mac's electronic and PU problems.

Yes, testing is very valuable but it's not a solution for poor engineering. When the other makers moved to V6 turbos', they didn't have these kinds of problems and they had the same testing issues.

And you can't say Honda doesn't have experience. They are making all kinds of current race motors, including a turbo indy motor, and have built small displacement turbo F1 motors in the past. And McLaren was running the best motor on the grid last year -- Mercedes. It's not like Honda didn't know what Merc had.

The problem for Honda is a lack of power and too much fuel consumption. It's the same problem for Merc and Ferrari and Renault. They just haven't been able to crack it yet.

Grid penalties are also not Mac's problem. Qualifying 18th and then getting a 5 spot penalty doesn't hurt them at all.

I do think that they should shut up. After ever race, Alonso and Button say they made "progress" and that Mac's problems are going away just around the corner. Today Alonso said by the Japanese GP. It's ridiculous to keep sending this kind of message that raises expectations that can't be met. Let the solve them first, then say "we are back".

 

all the teams knew the rules going into it... Honda had an extra season they got to see what worked and did not work with the engines last season... Ferrari did not have a very good power unit at the start of last season, though they have been able to improve over the last season and a half...