OK, for those that haven't been following, the idea for this poll came about after a brief debate on "who would be in your top 5?". I postulated that while we'd never agree completely, the list of candidates is pretty short - Perm your 5 from around a dozen was my initial guess. However, not wanting to get shouted at, too much anyway, for leaving off driver X, I asked for opinions in the "pre-selection" thread; Based on responses there, a couple more guys made it to the "shortlist". With all due respect to those who suggested him, I've left off Mario - A true motor racing great, probably #1 in most people's books, but in F1 I just don't think he's top 5 material. Same with Peterson, Rindt & Belloff; Great talents taken too soon, but top 5? Sorry, I think not. Peter raised an interesting question too; Caused me much angst & head scratching! I think it's a little of both! Certainly, the vast majority of candidates are WDC's, which is to be expected I feel. However, anyone who saw Gilles at his magical best would (rightly) insist he be on the list. I feel it's a tough, and always arbitrary call - But I've done my best..... Certainly, feel free to post any other names you feel I've overlooked and see if they garner any support. This will be a multiple choice, public, poll; You *can* vote for all of them, but the idea is to vote for your top 5 (or less if you don't know 5 - You don't *have* to vote for 5). More than 5 will be "frowned upon", and as the results are public you're opening yourself to ridicule should you vote for more than 5! Cheers, Ian
Done, my choice was: Gilles Jimmy Fangio Shummy Moss And this would be the order to....i admit it was hard between Senna, Moss and ascari, the first 3 not so much....
Part of being the goat is how long that level is sustained. Short careers can show alot of potential and one can guess what if, but all it is is speculation. 10 years ago Tiger Woods was going to become the GOAT for golf. As time progressed we now see this will never happen. I was never a fan of his but Michael is the goat.
+1 Mainly why I left off some supreme talent that just wasn't around for long enough; I almost feel I should apologize to Tifusa & Peter for leaving Belloff out for example...... Agreed. Partly the reason there's no current guys here either; Fred (or Elton! ) *may* get there, but I feel it's too early yet. Fair enough! BTW, there's no rule that says you've got to vote for 5. (just no more than 5!) Cheers, Ian
I always find it difficult to compare across eras, but here is how I judge.... One WDC can be lucked into, two can be had with a dominate car in a particular era. In order to be a true great, you need a minimum of 3 WDC and have done it with at least two different teams and had a non winning year between, meaning that you fought and came up short, but maintained the fire to win it again. Based on that, the 5 that I choose, and NOT in order of greatness would be: Juan Manuel Fangio - 51 (Alfa), 54 (Mercedes), 55 (Ferrari), 56 (Ferrari) and 57 (Maserati) Jack Brabham - 59 (Cooper), 60 (Cooper) and 66 (Brabham - His own car!) Niki Lauda - 75 (Ferrari), 77 (Ferrari) and 84 (McLaren) Alain Prost - 85 (McLaren), 86 (McLaren), 89 (McLaren) and 93 (Williams) Michael Schumacher - 94 (Benneton), 95 (Benneton), 00 (Ferrari), 01 (Ferrari), 02 (Ferrari), 03 (Ferrari), 04 (Ferrari) Stewart (69, 71 and 73), Piquet (81, 82 and 87) and Senna (88, 90 and 91) would qualify as well under my criteria and would be worthy for inclusion, but Seb would not, despite 4 in a row with the same team. LewHam is getting close...
Agreed - It's not just "difficult", but as has been said many times, I think it's nigh on impossible. I like your criteria! Makes a lot of sense. Certainly no argument on any of those choices from me! However, as we've debated before, true greatness (often) goes beyond the statistics, at least in my mind. For example, personally I chose Gilles. Some folks wanted Stefan Belloff included..... Cheers, Ian
LewHam is getting close but Jim Clark isn't on the list? I chose Clark Senna Schumacher Prost Stewart. However had Clark not been killed I have a feeling he would've dethroned sir Jackie and Graham Hill. Hill only won that year because Clark died. But I won't say anything further to derail this thread
I guess he was eliminated from contention by "failing" to meet his criteria; Three or more titles with at least two teams with a gap between titles. Pretty "strict" pre-requisites, but no argument from me! Cheers, Ian
Fair question. Clark won his two with Lotus in 63 and 65. He was dominant in his era no doubt and would have likely won more had he not been killed. Part of it is hanging around in a dangerous era long enough to accumulate the titles. Unfortunately Clark did not have that privilege. Hammy, while he is not my favored driver, will likely finish this season with 3 WDC, 08 (McLaren) 14 (Merc) and 15 (Merc). He fits my criteria. If Seb wins with Ferrari, he would have to be in the discussion and I would have to tighten the criteria to get back to only 5! Strict, sure, but otherwise it is simply opinion. In my heart I rank Senna as a driver higher than Prost, but Prost was a more methodical racer that accomplished more in his career and lived to tell about it. My list might look different if I went by heart and it would be clouded by drivers who drove for Ferrari....
Well since you removed some current drivers from the pole I will abstain from voting. Here is how I would have voted, in order: 1. Schumacher 2. Senna 3. Clark 4. Prost 5. Hamilton
Here is my pick: 1.) Fangio: although I have certainly never seen him racing in person all the videos of his active time show how easy it looked when he was driving. Fangio was not only fast but he also had a sense of what car he had to drive, that is why he has 5 championships. Furthermore one have to keep in mind that his "best years" were taken by the racing break during WWII, he was in the late 30s when he finally came to Europe, one could just imagine how many more titles he might have collected if he started as early as many others. Furthermore I have never read someone talking bad about him, so his character also made him one of the greats. 2.) Senna: I think Senna took F1 to another level. Never before was someone as addicted to racing as he was. As far as I know he was also the first who really worked on his fitness to make drivers as athletic as they are today. And I think one does not have to say anything about his natural talent. 3.) Schumacher: he was the logical step after Senna. Almost as talented he added diligence and technical know how making him the perfect driver in the era of unlimited testing. When he won a race he went straight to Fiorano to improve the car for the next race whereas the second and third placed drivers went on holliday to relax after a busy weekend. People always talk about his dominant Ferrari but I doubt that the car would have ever been that dominant without him joining the Scuderia. RB might have won without Vettel, Mercedes most likely without Hamilton but I doubt Ferrari without Schumacher. Certainly he was not alone but I guess the team was never as motivated as they were while he was driving for them, the mechanics would have walked through the fire for him (and he for them). And his talent was shown multiple times in the early years when he was driving the Benetton and Alesi and Berger thought they will get a great car and were surprised how bad it actually was. On the other side nobody expected him to win a single race in his first year at Ferrari but he did 4.) Clark: just as Fangio he had some natural talent and he drove fast without being trained like todays drivers. He just sat in a car and was fast. Just as Fangio he was taken many of his best years, this time unfortunately because of his death...And again I have never heard someone talking bad about him 5.) Not exactly F1 but we had that in the previous list: Nuvolari.... I guess he was the best driver before the war in all kind of cars and winning the German GP in an Alfa P3 in front of all the "politicians" and against the Mercedes and AU Silver Arrows might be the same as lapping todays Mercedes in a Manor....
IMHO, why should having a career of championship wins with one team count against being the greatest? I would consider it a major accomplishment to keep things together that long.
It doesn't as such. But once we get to that rarified air (the 3+ guys?), we look closer.... - Did he do it with multiple teams? - With a break between titles? I'm not saying that's all there is to it, but it seems like a good start. Hell yeah! Cheers, Ian
Alphabetical order: Clark-fast smooth and a gentleman racer. Taken before his prime. Lauda-car developer sans equal, great racer who never put a dirty move on a competitor. Courage and determination defined. Great tactician in an age without radios, etc. Schumey-great car developer and tactician, ruthless and fast. Built teams around him. Senna- ruthless, fast in all conditions and in all cars, drove around problems with his cars and always got on with it. Good developer also. Villeneuve-took it to the next level-look at his 1979 French gp last laps. Car was easily out powered by the Renault but you had to pry second place from him; it was this competitive spirit which led to his demise. I still think that his 1981 Spanish Gp win may have been the best drive I have ever witnessed. Diamond Balls and horsepower won that one-the chassis was complete crap and he took that pos and dragged it around for the win. Btw his pass of Alan jones in the Dutch Grand Prix on the outside of Tarzan in 1979 was stunning. Honorable mentions: Prost Piquet Fangio Vettel and hammy owe their Wdc to the excellence of their designers IMHO.
The "G" in GOAT stands for "Greatest." There can be only one "Greatest." And even though I have other drivers I like more than him, there is only one answer. It is a guy who would beat any other on that list in identical cars. Michael Schumacher. In your heart, you know I am right.
My picks:- 1) Ascari 2) Schumacher 3) Clark 4) Prost 5) Gilles I also think we should change the title name from GOAT to GONAT Greatest Of Nearly All Time. It certainly can't be an F1 "All Time" list because we aren't covering the current era. Oops, hope that's not too controversial
I must say i'm amazed to see Prost leading Gilles, since they drove at the same time....Gilles started a couple of years before but then they were both in top teams and there is no doubt (for anyone familiar with that period) who was regarded as the absolute top driver at the time....Prost himself said after Gilles death "We are just a bunch of good professionals, Gilles was special". What makes me be so sure about Gilles being the greatest driving talent that ever lived it's the huge amout of races where he simply was out of this world....if you guys think well, even with the top guys, there are only a handfull of moment you can really recall and say "wow, that was brilliant".....but not with Gilles, in almost every race he would take a rabitt out of his hat....Classic 308 already mentioned many but i could add a few...The way he avoids crashing at Zandvoort 79 after the tyre deflates, his drive to the pits on 2 wheels driving with just one hand at full trotle, His overtaking of Arnoux at Monaco 80, than driving 5s a lap quicker than anyone else when the rain hits the track (with that POS), putting the 126ck in the front row at Monaco 81...hell, Nelson did the pole with a brabham that was easily worth 2s a lap faster than his Ferrari (and that was below minimum weight!!!) Pironi he was regarded by many as the 2º fastest driver at the time was 2.5s behind Gilles!!! finished a lap behind...and then go and win that race!!! The driving that same year in canada, with the wing blocking his view, finishing on the podium, the starts..Germany 79 was simply "alien stuff", the fight with KEKE at long beach 82, the way he recovers the car after loosing it under braking, Brasil 80, leading the g.p with the t5 (how was that possible) and fighting Piquet and Jones the same year at Argentina for second place!!!! and i could go on and on!!!None of the other guys....(ok i can't be so sure about Fangio and Jimmy and Moss) but i remenber Senna very well, and he was nowhere Gilles ability, he has some amazing moments, but not comparable with Gilles, His greates race was undoubtly Estoril 85, his first victory (even him alnowledge that) but that Lotus was a pretty decent car, people say he was amazing with that crap toleman at Monaco, and he was but, the Toleman was a very good car (as shown by Johnasen who later replaced Senna) certainly a lot better than a 126ck that was considered by many (Gordon Murray included) as the worst chassis in the field, and the most impressive was taht Gilles didn't need the rain to equalize things, he did it under dry normal circunstances.....and above all, besides being a better driver he never resorted to cheating and crashing against others to win.
