Ilmor & AER interested, Cosworth says no - PlanetF1 : PlanetF1 I would like to see factory engines keep to a formula, although I like the old NA 8's, 10's, and 12's. I would like to see the customer engines get some FIA breaks on that formula's development and technology if they are shown not on par with the factory engines. So if the merc engine is 50hp up on the customer engine let the customer engine rev up another 500rpm...something like that. I think that would improve F1 increasing competition and spectator interest. I want to see a backmarker at least challenge for Q3. What we have now is a parade.
+1 It sometimes happens, but I agree, too rarely. Another +1. However, if we remove the rose tinteds, hasn't it really always been thus? I've been watching for longer than I'd care to admit, & the 'debate' never changes....... "There's no overtaking", "paint 'em the same, and no one could tell the Merc from the Ferrari". Etc etc...... I guess as a sport it completely sucks. I've no idea why I've followed it for the majority of my life. 😳 Cheers, Ian
This idiotic idea of the FIA to bring in another engine with completely different specs to those in place now, for poorer teams, is ridiculous. This problem of engine power difference is easily solved; allow engine development, no tokens, throughout 2016. This gives other teams a chance to finally catch up with Mercedes.
Sorry but you are wrong. The problem now is the teams that supply the engines to other teams SANDBAG THEM so they don't make the creating team look bad. You really think Mercedes gives the same engine to Williams every race? And Ferrari gives their same engines to Torro Rossa and Sauber? The game is rigged. Only with a supplier that doesn't have an axe to grind will you find parity again. Until then, it's going to be the same 6 cars that have a chance to win any race.
+1000 Being a customer of Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault or Honda would suck. Not only they would over-charge you, but they would never allow you to threaten them, whatever. Getting engine supply from an INDEPENDENT engine builder would be better. That's what the small teams are now saying, and that's what Bernie and the FIA are also thinking. How to make sure the independent engine builder can survive? Bernie could subsidise it out of the FOM fund, just like he subsidises the teams.
No, that doesn't address the cost. Engine costs have rocketted under this new formula and the stranglehold of the manufacturers.
Ferrari doesn't supply toro Rosso. We know they don't supply Sauber with equal engines, they're with an early 2015 engine, and I think Sauber even refused an upgraded engine for a while. Unsure if they have a somewhat updated engine...no matter. Ferrari could easily supply Manor/Sauber with newest spec engine since they do not compete on the same level as Ferrari. Mercedes supposedly does. Merc found, together with Petronas an additional 40hp in the combustion chamber by running an exact blend of oils/fuel. Obviously they don't share this with Williams and the like...and we know that in Austria last year, when Williams had a chance of winning, they had to ask mercedes if they could use engine mode X, which Mercedes refused...I believe on reliability concerns (yeah right). So yes, game obviously is rigged, to an extend...mostly/only to directly competing teams however. Very true. Cost is ridiculous for hated engines. I forgot about that in my statement...I've been quite vocal on the current engines and cost issues; to get rid of the significant cost we need a different engine formula, and that is to go simpler.
It's funny...six months ago Bernie had no sympathy and said the smaller teams should scale down on the number of trucks and RVs they bring to each event... Now FIFA is under scrutiny...with the very real threat that F1 is next. Suddenly there needs to be a cheap engine option.
I don´t have a problem with manufacturers selling worse engines to the customers. If I was Toto Wolff I wouldn´t want to create my own competition either, specially if FIA wants me to sell engines at a loss like they pretended some months ago. For me the problem is not that the "customer" engines are not good enough to win (since the Cosworth DFV got outdated it always has been that way). The problems are: #1 Only one engine is good enough to win right now. If Ferrari, Renault and Honda had good material, nobody would care about Williams being castrated by Mercedes, as there would be a good fight between the factory teams. Also, independent teams that were doing well would have more chances of becoming the "factory team" of someone if they perform well (i.e: Red Bull beating Renault to become Renault´s "official" team). Right now it´s better to be a Mercedes customer than the "official" Honda team. # 2, and this is the big problem in the short term: the cost of those customer engines. Not everybody can afford them and you can´t run a car without an engine. So although I dislike this idea of the white-label engines, I think that maybe it´s the lesser evil.
+1 Cost and availability are the 2 questions to solve. A white-label engine, as you call it, must have a realistic price tag, and be sold to whichever team wants it. I am not a Red Bull fan, but it must be said that the 4 present engine manufacturers are driving it out of F1. Next year it could be some other team, etc...
If the power unit that the FIA are talking about introducing is going to match the 1.6 turbo power units performance-wise, but are going to be a lot cheaper/simpler to make, what's to stop both Mercedes and Ferrari ditching their complex 1.6 turbo power units and building the simpler 2.2 turbo instead, freeing up a load of cash to spend elsewhere on the car? Will there be a rule that states that the engine manufacturer can only homologate one type of power unit? - Or could Ferrari and Mercedes homolgate both types of power unit and run whichever power unit they deem best suits the circuit that they are at? (It would be expensive but possible!) I could see a grey area loophole where they would look to see which power unit has the advantage based on the equivalence ruling that weekend and run the most advantageous power unit! The other issue I can see with this FIA independent power unit supply is, apart from being cheaper, how is it actually any different to the power unit supply from Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault or Honda? Let's say Ilmor come in with a 2.2 turbo power unit and supply various teams, but after a couple of years decide to pull out of F1 because they cannot afford to supply the teams any more, or Ilmor go out of business for some reason, what then happens to the teams who were relying on Ilmor? Those teams are still at the mercy of an external engine/power unit supplier - They're not necessarily any safer than they were when they were supplied by the other engine/power unit manufacturers. And unless the FIA change the rules dramatically, they wouldn't be able to force Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault or Honda to take back the teams who had previously ditched them, so what would those teams do?
Which one of the four engine manufacturers created the situation whereby Red Bull ditched their engine supplier before having a replacement in place? Did Renault tell Red Bull to ditch them? Did Ferrari tell Red Bull to ditch Renault? Did Mercedes tell Red Bull to ditch Renault? Did Honda tell Red Bull to ditch Renault? None of them did! - Red Bull put themselves in an incredibly vulnerable position due to arrogantly believing that they could ditch one power unit deal mid contract and walk straight into another one with another manufacturer. No one else put Red Bull in this vulnerable position but themselves! As I've posted before, Red Bull took great delight in rubbing the noses of Ferrari and Mercedes in it when they were dominating F1 and winning week in - week out. Then, when they needed help from Mercedes and Ferrari, that 4 years of cocky, mickey taking was remembered and and thrown back in their faces with a refusal to help. Had they have shown a little more humility when they were winning then things might have been different for them! Red Bull have been taught a massive lesson about Humility and arrogance! In F1, when these boys mess with the Bull - They rip off it's horns and use them to tear off it's b:censored:lls! Perhaps Red Bull should change it's name to Red Steer from now on!
More than the costs, it's the <lack of> manufacturing volume. If a team is allowed 5 engines per season, guess how many engines a manufacture has to make? When testing was legal, Ferrari made hundreds of engines per year (rebuilds included). In addition the engine spec improved every 5 or 10 engines built, so the whole program made advancements rapidly and continuously. A new "Cosworth" coming into the game could not justify even trying is the total number of engines sold per year was 10. Thus, open testing is the salvation of F1.
These non-hybrid engines shouldn´t be made for teams like Red Bull. These engines should be a cheap option for Manor and Sauber, good enough to pick some points but not to win. If the cheap engines were as good as the hybrid ones, why would Mercedes, Ferrari and others want to use the most expensive option? Red Bull should be left alone dealing with their self-inflicted pain. Williams, McLaren and all the top "garagistes" had to go through bad streaks waiting for a good engine deal. You won´t see Ron Dennis begging for an engine.
I agree with everything you said. If you say that RB deserves it, I am with you. Let's just say that now the 4 engine manufacturers are making the most of the advantage Red Bull handed to them with their clumsy rethoric. I don't think there would be one tear at Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari or Honda is Red Bull was leaving F1. Bernie may think otherwise.
Interesting question. I suppose Mercedes or Ferrari could switch to 2.2 turbo unit too, if they wished to. That would demonstrate that the 1.6 hybrid power unit is too complex and too expensive; this has been argue from the start !!!
The independent engine supplier would have a contract with the FIA. He would sell and service the engines at a price fixed by the FIA. If this not profitable, the FIA (or Bernie) would make up the shortfall out of the FOM fund. The independent engine supplier would be guaranty a fixed income, indexed year after year until the end of the contract/formula.
Would be interesting to see what Honda think about getting overtaken by a Marussia with a simpler, cheaper and more reliable engine.
XXX Mosley (Thanks Kraft ; )) chimes in and sounds like a moron: Max Mosley - Ferrari 'small minded' to veto engine cost cap ...I mean it's just a massive loss of like 10m to reach the arbitrary number that the FIA wants. So small minded of Ferrari not to give their engine away at a massive loss. The guys in the FIA remind me of many career university professors - off in la la land, never having held a real job. No offense to solid professors of course - of which there are quite a few. I like how Ferrari are the bad guys here in the press. For the record, Mercedes (largest team and based in the UK) would not meet the engine supply price point either. Somehow the press has forgotten about them. F1 is as trashy as reality TV when it comes to this crap.
The FIA designed a new PU that cost LOTS of money to design, develop and make. Now Max wants Ferrari to save F1 from the expense that is crippling the independent teams. The cost of the PU is much bigger piece of the overall cost of a F1 car, effectively killing the ability of small teams to develop their chassis because that money was spent on PUs. Some things never change.
There was literally no need to have an engine design like that. I understand that the teams agreed and all that... but it didn't have to come out of the box like that. They should've started with a high revving V6 Turbo with a KERS and that's it. Then each season or so could have introduced a new facet to the complexity. This would have given teams the ability to master the engine from the get-go and would have certainly kept costs down. It's just odd that you create this super complex PU that costs a fortune... which is counter to the goal of saving money... yet you decide to save the money by cutting testing and development which is the very thing which would allow teams to fix their problems and be competitive. It's chicken or the egg issue... a spiral of stupidity that keeps going round and round and round further down the drain.
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