The biggest problem with these PU's...

+1

Over-complicated is the right word.

It's a formula for boffins.

 

Agreed.

Having said that, it's pretty much always been 'boffin driven'. One could argue that the much vaunted Le Mans cars are even more so......

What we've got to remember though is they (primarily the teams, not the FIA) got themselves into this mess. Getting out of it is gonna take a while, & from the little I've seen of the regs for next year, I can't honestly say I'm optimistic.

Cheers,
Ian

 

+1

Going to take a decent amount of people to stop watching once more before a seriously drastic overhaul of F1 regs is going to take place IMO .

 

I don't think F1 will ever go back to what it was for many decades, when it was very interesting for me. I have to accept that.

As for the teams, the only way to protest against the new engine formula is really to pull out.

For example, having build a solid resume for McLaren, I cannot understand why Ron Dennis still bothers with F1, when the road car business is taking off, and gathering success on the track on its own.

Same for Manor; John Booth and Lowdown did the right thing in leaving the F1 team to the new owner and starting Manor WEC with a 2-car team. That will be more fun.

I don't know what Monika is thinking at Sauber, but she can't enjoy the situation, surely. Every end of the month the reality must hit her in the face.

Why Carlos Ghosn insited in Renault staying in F1, I don't know. Buying Lotus from Genni, and supplying Red Bull with TAG-Heuer branded engine can't do much for the company's image, I should think. He may have to face a shareholders' revolt at some point. The other French carmaker (PSA Peugeot-Citroen) is lifting world championships in touring cars (WTCC), rallying (WRC + Dakar), whilst Renault is getting a bad rap in F1. Great !!!

Really, I can only see Mercedes (because it's a carmaker with racing pedigree), Ferrari (because of tradition), and Red Bull (because it has a license to print money) having really any business to be in F1. The others are mostly extras in the scenario.

Williams is a customer, a small private team, so is Haas, so is Force India, etc... they will never be allowed to beat their engine supplier, and certainly not to take a championship.

That's the state of affairs, as far as I am concerned.
Not many manufacturers want to get involved in F1; Toyota and BMW left and are glad they did. VW/AUDI don't want to consider it (WEC and rallying instead, with huge success).

Frankly, I think F1 is going the way Indy racing did: self destroying itself. . A great pity.

 

It was c:censored:ap when F1 went from 3.0 N/A's to 1.5 Turbo's!
It was c:censored:ap when F1 went from 1.5 Turbo's to 3.5 N/A's!
It was c:censored:ap when F1 went from 3.5 V8's/V12's to 3.0 V10's!
It was c:censored:ap when F1 went from 3.0 V10's to 2.4 V8's!
Now it's c:censored:ap having gone from 2.4 V8's to 1.6 Turbo/Hybrids!

It's always c:censored:ap apparently, when F1 changes the engine specs - Until we get used to it, that is!

 

i think it gets worse..............

 

I'll (try) & keep an open mind on it for now; Despite what us here in the peanut gallery may feel, there's some darn smart folks involved with the TWG/SWG's. Getting them to agree on the color of the sky is tough, and they've all got their own agendas etc, but I do believe they're trying.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Try again. There was nowhere NEAR the amount of disatisfaction with any of the previous reg changes you mentioned. We're in new territory here and yes this formula is weak

 

Rose tinted glasses.

When Schumi was a young pup racing for Benetton and I couldn't see anything but RED, I crossed my fingers every race that his car would blow up. It didn't happen every race or every other race, but it did happen. It wasn't until the mid-2000s that the lumps became reliable enough to hold together consistently.

History is littered with sad stories about drivers on the final lap blowing up. It's part of top level racing. (with apologies to HST...) the only way to know where a line is...is to cross it.

The goals are a bit different these days...forced to make an engine last five races (or so)...including practice, qualifying and the race. So...the 'line' has moved.

 

Well, they never before tried something as complicated, involving several different technologies and with limited development and test.

I think any new engine formula should be announced 4 or 5 years before, to allow interested parties to research, design, build, test and develop their powerplant.

I don't know how much notice the engine builders were given, but obviously it wasn't enough. Maybe some were optimistic and weren't ready.

Basing a racing series on undeveloped power units is a recipe for disaster.

This present formula will be dominated by the Mercedes engine to the end, IMO.

The next formula should be imposed, not discussed ad nauseam, and there should be a provision for an independent engine supplier appart from the manufacturers. Maybe it's only in my dreams !!

 

Being a glass is half full guy, i want to thank the new PU program with making me a huge fan of MotoGP. Without the motivation to look for real racing elsewhere i never would have made the effort to watch MotoGP and get hooked. The riders are true heroes, the short sprint races are not typically encumbered by pit stops and there is no lift and coast. Engine size actually increased the last go round. I see MotoGP being what Formula 1 used to be when it was fun and not concerned with the appearance of being green and socially responsible.

Due to the new power units i have also saved significant funds by having no interest in attending the races in person since 2013 and have been on wonderful vacations that are no longer centered on attending a Formula 1 race.

Mercedes will win another championship this year and it will probably be Nico this time, the world will not stop spinning either way and I still watch it (what parts i dont take a nap through).

 

Why are the MGUs crap?

Imagine packaging a motor that produces 100 HP in the value of an industrial motor that produces 5 HP and you have some understanding of the power densities involved.

Now imagine hooking them up to the water cooling system so that they don't burn up.

So, you have something on the order of a 1 quart soda bottle putting out 70,00 watts at whatever conversion efficiency they run. Pretty amazing if you ask me. But I'm sure most will point out why they are crap rather than amazing.

Another way to look at the current formula is that these engines (+MGUs and batteries) are as efficient as the largest piston powered electrical plants i the world; slightly greater than 50% thermal efficiency, up from low-to-mid 30% in the 3.0 liter formula.

 

The principal is the same! - Every time a major change has been made to the engine/power unit regulations, people have complained!

The funny thing is, most of the drivers actually like the power units they have now because the cars actually generate some proper torque these days for powering out of corners! Previously, when it came to torque, the cars were pretty gutless!


And what exactly are the complaints being made?:

The fans are unhappy mainly because the PU's are quieter - If they made the same amount of noise as the old 2.4 V8's then the fans wouldn't really give a s:censored:t about the change.

Mercedes have a big advantage over the rest? - Like we've never been in that situation pre-hybrid power units?

The customer Teams are unhappy because they're having to pay a lot more for their PU's now! - These are not cheap PU's to design and build though, so why should the manufacturers spend hundreds of Millions of Dollars to design these PU's and then have to give them away to teams who can't afford to design and build their own?

F1 was never intended to be a series to be done on the cheap! - It has always been a rich man's sport!

When F1 went from "manly" 3.0 V10's to "girly" 2.4 V8's, the amount of fuss made, and suggestions that the FIA had lost the plot and ruined F1 forever were rife! At the time it was the death-knell for the sport!

Now we're hearing pretty much the same statements being made all over again with these new PU's.

As I say, when it comes to F1, no one likes change - Until we get used to it!

 

Thankyou Mitch!

Pretty much what I've been trying to say since they first appeared. The performance (power & torque) they're generating from these little things is almost beyond belief.

OK, they sound like ****, but as the diesel guys at Audi noted long ago (Dr Ullrich?), "noise is just wasted energy."

Expensive? Sure, but F1 has never been for the "poor".....

That they can spin their wheels again in pretty much any gear with all that torque seems to be missed by most.

Cheers,
Ian
PS - Talking of wasted power reminds me of being in the pits at Brands many, many years back. It was a storm of almost biblical proportions; *Pissing* down doesn't start to describe it. A buddy & I had a conversation about the amount of power needed to throw up the *monster* "rooster tails" they were generating; We figured 100's of ponies needed. Which of course then prompted "how do we save that energy?"..... Unfortunately, we never did come up with an answer.

 

The engineering behind the engines is fantastic, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The reason people call it crap is because they sound like ****, save for a handful of people.

 

I don't think there's anyone here at least that 'defends' the sound. It is, as you so rightly note, ****! Trouble is, they're very efficient & don't piss all that energy out of the waste disposal pipes like they used to.

Cheers,
Ian

 

I couldn't agree more .

 

Not really. The biggest and best drivers (Seb, Button, Hamilton and Ricciardo to name a few) want a return to NA power.

Also the scope of the outcry about these engines is way beyond anything we have seen. It's a big deal.

 

There are some here (surprisingly) that prefer this engine sound. Bizarre!

+1

 

Unbelievably, there are people who like/drink Coors Light...talk about bizarre...

Seriously, if you had the hearing damage that I do you *might* feel differently. I've made no secret about the fact that I like the technology. The sound is appropriate for the technology.

Ian has said it...I have said it...many have said it: noise is energy. The more noise, the more wasted energy. Noise for the sake of noise would be contrived. Too much is already contrived.

What I honestly find bizarre is how many "fans" really want a spec series with fifteen year old technology. They tell me that I should go watch Formula E...when, they should really be watching vintage racing or NASCAR or something.

 

Again I don't know how old the original poster is, but I remember F-1 from the early 70's. it was much the same. Those Ford DFV's were killing the sport. anyone could just show up with a garden frame car and compete.... back then it was any one with the $$ could go GP racings... and that was a problem for the "big teams"

I think the PU's of today are healthy for the sport. F-1 need to be mining the technology world for more and more ways to be competitive. MB just seems to have a grip on the tech side where as others don't.

as for Cars blowing up before they start the race? THAT was the norm for most of F-1's history. it was only really during the mid - late 2000's that engines got so reliable. all the electronics helped with that.

F-1 is a team sport... its traditionally been one and should be one. My gripe is that the cars are being artificially held back from all the tech. I agree with William = F-1 rules need to be dictated and set up by the FIA only. Allowing the teams to have way too much influence on rules and the busienss is what killed CART...

 

I think that you can count me as one of these fans!

F1 without aero, with screaming V10/V12 atmo engines, manual gearboxes, steel brake discs, groved tyres, no radio communication, no telemetry, but unlimited fuel, engines, and testing would suit me fine.
I loved that era, and I wish F1 had been kept like that. Technology bores me stiff it really does. I watch F1 to see competition between drivers, not between engineering teams. I want to see drivers battling with cars difficult to handle. I want to hear noise.

That's why I love sprint cars on dirt track oval tracks in the US, or speedway motorcycle racing. There is very little new technology, and the sport has been kept pure.

When you see that a F1 team needs several hundreds of technicians, engineers, boffins of all sort to produce at huge cost cars that are SLOWER than 10 years ago, there is a problem.

I suppose that for people like me, when a sport is not raw anymore but become sanitised by technology, it loses its appeal.

In the end, technology will kill F1, not only through excessive cost, but by turning away the public. I suppose that the boffins will be really happy when the human factor will be eliminated and driverless cars will compete among themselves. Already the ROBOCAR demonstrations are heading that way.