FIA to use electronic detection to enforce track limits | FerrariChat

FIA to use electronic detection to enforce track limits

Discussion in 'F1' started by william, Jul 21, 2016.

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  1. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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  2. SPEEDCORE

    SPEEDCORE Four Time F1 World Champ

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    About time.
     
  3. NEP

    NEP F1 Rookie

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    AUGUST 22, 2016

    Track limits must be policed says Whiting



    Two F1 team bosses have slammed the current situation in the sport regarding the thorny topic of so-called 'track limits'.

    Just before the summer break, leading team chiefs approached Charlie Whiting to plead for a change of heart, with interpretations of the legal limits of the track having controversially changed from corner to corner, and track to track - and even day to day - in recent races.

    Mercedes' Toto Wolff thinks the FIA should stop policing the limits altogether.

    "Let them race," he is quoted by Gulf News. "It is good for the spectacle and great for the fans.

    "If you start to analysing white lines and whether a driver has put two centimetres of his tyre over the marks and his laptime is taken away, nobody understands."

    Red Bull's Christian Horner has a slightly different view, believing that while track limits should be policed, it should at least be done so consistently.

    "You just cannot take it corner by corner and my frustration is like so many other people's," he said. Horner thinks a "white line" marking the extremities of the track should be strictly policed, just like in tennis.

    The other issue, Wolff explained, is the lack of consistency.

    "In Germany is was stupid," he said. "The legislation was changed three times."

    F1 race director Whiting, however, said it is just not feasible to stop policing track limits.

    "I felt that was inappropriate," he said, following the requests of team bosses at Hockenheim to drop the policing. "I think we should carry on doing what we do.

    "There are certain corners on certain tracks that do present us with little problems but we are getting rid of them one by one.

    "The difficulty of allowing complete freedom and letting them go very wide and no longer taking any notice is that simply there would be a different track fundamentally and it would be faster and there would be less run-off -- so we couldn't possibly contemplate it," Whiting added.
     
  4. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Take an angle grinder to the run off, cut exactly at the white line and about a meter wide. Fill gap with gravel or proper grass.

    Lines will be respected, because if they don't they are SURE to lose time. If they go off track out of control the parking lot can still do whatever they think it's good for. No need for dumb penalties.
     
  5. Kiwi Nick

    Kiwi Nick Formula 3

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    The problem lies in the enforcement. The stewards can't always agree what is beyond the limit from track to track, corner to corner, and driver to driver. When they do agree on what is a violation, they can't agree on what a penalty is...5 seconds, 30 seconds, drive-thru. Time penalties are often not assessed until the race is finished and as often as not have no impact on the results. When Nico has a 12 second lead, he gets a 10 sec penalty. If he had gotten a 30 second penalty it might have cost him two places.

    The best way to deal with this is to make exceeding the track limits self-penalizing. At Monaco, if a driver exceeds the track limit he is immediately rewarded with a flat tire or broken suspension. New tracks like COTA have areas beyond the track limit that have as much grip as the track itself. The simplest and most fair way to enforce the track limits is to put a grass or gravel verge of some width like 3 meters beyond the curbs. Paved or gravel run-off areas can be built beyond that if required. But so long as there is traction beyond the curbs, drivers will be tempted to use it. If they want to risk putting two or four wheels on grass, let them. Physics will decide what the penalty is.
     
  6. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That would be a very sensible solution, and probably cheap as well.

    It's the ease drivers have to move from the track to the run-off areas and back on the track without hindrance that makes them "stretch" the tracks.
     
  7. nathandarby67

    nathandarby67 F1 Veteran
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    #7 nathandarby67, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I agree with gravel or grass on the outsides of corners.

    Here's another idea: They should put safe, lightweight foam walls on the INSIDES of a lot of these corners, so the drivers will not be tempted to cut the corner. You've all seen the Goodwood Revival, they replaced the original brick(!) chicane with a safe foam replica. Looks great and serves as a firm, definitive limit. In F1 use, if a driver were to hit the foam and his car was mechanically able to keep going, he could still be significantly penalized enough to put him out of race contention. It would give an easy, VISUAL limit that both fans and driver could see, and not be some nebulous, invisible electronic nanny.
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  8. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Exactly.

    It would also ''unruin'' some tracks, yet still keep it all save.
     
  9. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Be prepared to see a lot of track marshals repairing the foam chicanes during the race though ...
     
  10. Rosso328

    Rosso328 F1 Veteran
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    100% agree!

    We don't need to put walls alongside every corner a la Monaco, and can leave the huge, safe runoff areas in places like COTA intact. But a one or two yard width of a very unfriendly, slippery surface will make sure that if you do put two wheels off, you are going to use that runoff area! And rejoin much farther back in the pack.
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Bas is dead right, but the FIA are too stupid to do something this logical and right.
    Pete
     
  12. WPOZZZ

    WPOZZZ F1 Veteran

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    Agree 150%! Go off track and it either slows you down, or you break something.
     
  13. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #13 DeSoto, Aug 23, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
    I'd thought the same but the bike guys wouldn't like the idea. It would need to be some sort of removable device, tall rubber kerbs or something like that.

    In any case, I don't like the "virtual" track limit made with a laser beam.
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Once upon a time they all used to race on tracks that the edge was kerbing and then grass. That is what we need to return to.

    This trying to ensure all race cars continue going to keep the TV show supposedly interesting has removed all suspense and drama from all forms of motorsport. Another Bernie F up.

    We need to get the drama and suspense back, not Elton sort of drama but on the track real drama and action!

    Going over the edge of the track should cause big sideways action and/or loss of time, if not broken car/bike in the barriers!
    Pete
     
  15. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    +1 the sport is 'safe' enough to have a driver deal with grass on the side of the tracks vs rocks or paved run off. Keep it on track to race.
     
  16. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    See I don't get that. MotoGP boys race on tracks like Mugello, which has no parking lot run offs whatsoever.

    A removable device or some sort of cover (that ''hooks'' in next to the curb) is easily created. Think of a big metal plate in shape of the corner with a lip that hooks in, and some sort of surface that mimics tarmac)
    That's on the FIA, mate.
     
  17. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #17 DeSoto, Aug 23, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
    Nice, but I don´t want someone to get killed so I can have some entertainment on Sundays. I know that cars are very safe these days but they´re not undestructable, and bikes are still dangerous: a guy got killed just a few weeks ago in Moto2.

    Grass and gravel traps had their shortcomings so we can´t go back to that. The idea is making racers loose time when they get off track, but without crashing.
     
  18. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    F1 boys race at Monaco and Montreal too, but that doesn´t mean that safety is perfect at those tracks.

    I think that old tracks are what they are so they have to deal with it, but wherever is possible there should be safe run off areas.
     
  19. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    shhhhhh.....they will realize it man!
     
  20. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The bikers don't like high kerbs where then can't slide across if they come off.

    But I don't think they can object to grass and gravel traps; they already race on circuits that have those.
     
  21. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Why not grass and gravel traps? It works very well.

    As for bikes, they mostly fall ON the track through loss of grip, then crash and slide off. Rider and bike going different ways and at different speeds.
    So the bikers need a soft reception area; both grass and gravel are kinder to the body that tarmac, I would have thought!! .

    Unlike cars where the car crash in the scenery AFTER it leaves the track, with the driver still inside. There is a lot more kinetic energy in a car than with a bike, so it travels further, very often to the tyre barriers. Also the types of crashes are very different.

    But we aren't talking about crashes here, but respecting track limits which is less and less observed since we have tarmac run-off areas.

    Give the drivers/riders one inch, they will take a mile!!
     
  22. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #22 DeSoto, Aug 23, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
    Well, on grass cars and bikers just slide till they hit something.

    Some bikers don´t like gravel traps because they roll on them instead of slide. And even for cars, gravel is not always good: sometimes the car just "floats" above the gravel, specially cars with fat tyres and flat bottom, something quite usual these days. Also when the car gets to the gravel sideways it can roll over.
     
  23. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 william, Aug 23, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
    I don't say that grass and gravel traps are the answer to everything, but they will certainly deter drivers and riders to use run-off areas in all impunity.

    What do you suggest ?


    BTW, some drivers and riders complain about this and that, and next thing you know they will go and race at Monaco or the Macao GP !!
    Where are the run-offs at these places?

    Macao GP

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPg2ddbedGQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc9JKslLxeQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAADQeW96Ew
     
  24. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    New Finnish track designed to thwart track limit abuse


    New Finnish track designed to thwart track limit abuse

    Alex Wurz, whose company has helped design Finland's new KymiRing that will host MotoGP in 2018, says the circuit is being deliberately tweaked to thwart abuse of track limits.





    They are talking about a mixture of asphalt, gravel and grass in the run-off areas.
     
  25. Kiwi Nick

    Kiwi Nick Formula 3

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    If grass and gravel are either too dangerous or not high tech enough, here's another high tech solution. Place the laser sensors 1/2 a car width beyond the track limit. Place a sensor on the bottom of the plank, at the centerline of the car. When the sensor on the car is triggered by the track side laser, engine power is cut off for 10 seconds. Since this will be accomplished via the ECU, it could be programmed as desired; 0 seconds for the first trigger, 5 seconds for the second offense, 10 seconds for the third, etc. Surely some tech weenies at the FIA could make this work and justify it by linking it to some sort of contrived road car safety system.

    It could even be programmed to give Lewis or Nico a couple of free passes just in case the championship needed to be tightened up a bit.
     

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