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  #41  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:43 PM
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You don't need NA for great sound. You need revs. More cylinders and revs helps even more.
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  #42  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by singletrack View Post
You don't need NA for great sound. You need revs. More cylinders and revs helps even more.

2 facts:

Turbos act as mufflers and therefore reduce noise significantly.

Turbo engines tend to run at lower revs than atmospheric engine, because they work with counter-pressure in the exhaust system.
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  #43  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by singletrack View Post
You don't need NA for great sound. You need revs. More cylinders and revs helps even more.
That is true.

If Brawn isn't going for NA engines (we'll never know but with his most recent statement lets go with ruling it out), IMO V8 would be great. Bump size up to 4 liters, hang a turbo each side of it and get going. Get rid of maximum fuel though just set max boost, simple as that. Simplify the engine some more by just having a simple KERS system not this hugely, unnecessary overcomplicated system to reduce cost.

https://youtu.be/am68lQsoNaI?t=122

Funnily enough this great sounding Sauber has a huge V8 turbo, 5 liters twin turbo and doesn't rev all that high (8000 only) but it sounds bloody fantastic.
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  #44  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by william View Post
Maybe Ross Brawn thinks the idea of attracting manufacturers to an atmo F1 formula is just impossible.
Well, a NA engine format will attract some manufacturers, maybe not all manufacturers.

Besides, we have turbo engines now and who has F1 attracted? MB? Ok, fine. Honda? Not that great, we'll see how long that lasts. Kept Renault in the game? Maybe, they would probably be there without turbos as well.

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Asking constructors who have spent millions in developing the hybrid formula to forget about it may prove to be a hard sale.
Hey, constructors had spent millions developing NA engines up until a few years ago, that didn't stop the FIA from going to a completely new design.

As I'm sure you know, you have to attract manufacturers but also you have to appeal to the fans. F1 attracted MB and Honda. But they have also left many (most?) fans sour as well. That tells me they have gone too far in their desire to attract mainline manufacturers and they need to go to a different formula.

Perhaps "let a thousand flowers bloom" and open up the regs to NA and turbo engines, let each team decide. Ferrari has their path, MB and Honda have theirs. That might be the only way to allow these really different manufactures to play in the same game and give the fans something to cheer about.

In closing, the close mindedness shown by Brawn and Todt is very, very dangerous to an organization. That is how dinosaur industries get killed by the next best thing and F1 is not immune to that.

-F
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  #45  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by william View Post
I would guess that Jean Todt had consultations with many parties before deciding the hybrid formula, if in fact he did.
New formula usually don't come about following on man's vision, but are the result of discussions between the main participants.
Perhaps he listened too closely to some parties (MB, Honda?) and not enough to others (Ferrari, Renault?).

He certainly didn't listen to Bernie. Bernie tried to kill that will all he had. And for all the grief Bernie gets he's earned the right to say "I told you so!".

-F
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  #46  
Old 03-21-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by furmano View Post
Perhaps he listened too closely to some parties (MB, Honda?) and not enough to others (Ferrari, Renault?).

He certainly didn't listen to Bernie. Bernie tried to kill that will all he had. And for all the grief Bernie gets he's earned the right to say "I told you so!".

-F
That's my feeling as well. Todt wanted green cars, so certainly he was all ears to Mercedes and Renaults proposals. They drafted up the new engine formula, the only way it could be stopped was if all teams said ''no, we do not want this''. That was never going to happen with Mercedes and Renault already committed to this so rules went ahead.

Bernie has done things wrong but gets unnecessary blame for things that are **** all to do with him, such as these engine regs. Both he and Ferrari said it was totally the wrong direction, they'd sound ****, be very expensive and most fans wouldn't like them. They where 100% right, and like you say...they can only say ''I told you so''.

Only 4 engines per car per season yet they costs an outrageous 20 million per season! Teams do less running in fear of lunching an engine so for the people paying good money to watch friday-sunday, we just don't see the cars all that much. Even if the teams WANT to drive their cars, they're so limited on mileage. It's ridiculous. Early 2000s when V10s where being developed at every weekend almost, an engine cost between €180-250k pending the manufacturer. At that rate, we could have a new engine per car every weekend and still spend only HALF what these stupid hybrids cost. It's madness. These hybrid engines where supposed to be a lot cheaper that's why the small teams voted along for them, but cost more than doubled. It's bankrupted teams. When teams like Sauber with over 100 million budget can't make ends meet...what the **** are we doing here?

Again I read that we need these engines because manufacturers are interested. But they're not. None of the big manufacturers have expressed any kind of interest saying ''oh, F1 has gone hybrid, let's go join them''. Honda joined because of their history with Mclaren. That's gone well.
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  #47  
Old 03-21-2017, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by william View Post
2 facts:

Turbos act as mufflers and therefore reduce noise significantly.

Turbo engines tend to run at lower revs than atmospheric engine, because they work with counter-pressure in the exhaust system.
Just go back and listen to the turbo motors of the 80s and 90s man. They sounded great and revved pretty high.
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  #48  
Old 03-21-2017, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Bas Jaski View Post
That is true.

If Brawn isn't going for NA engines (we'll never know but with his most recent statement lets go with ruling it out), IMO V8 would be great. Bump size up to 4 liters, hang a turbo each side of it and get going. Get rid of maximum fuel though just set max boost, simple as that. Simplify the engine some more by just having a simple KERS system not this hugely, unnecessary overcomplicated system to reduce cost.

https://youtu.be/am68lQsoNaI?t=122

Funnily enough this great sounding Sauber has a huge V8 turbo, 5 liters twin turbo and doesn't rev all that high (8000 only) but it sounds bloody fantastic.
Agreed.

But even the MP4/4 which was a v6 turbo sounded so much better than these.
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  #49  
Old 03-21-2017, 07:20 AM
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Exactly.

1986 Williams-Honda FW11 Turbo (1500 cc) - 1400 BHP @ 12000 RPM.

Turbocharging was banned from 1989 with NA engines limited to 3500 cc.
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  #50  
Old 03-21-2017, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bas Jaski View Post
That's my feeling as well. Todt wanted green cars, so certainly he was all ears to Mercedes and Renaults proposals. They drafted up the new engine formula, the only way it could be stopped was if all teams said ''no, we do not want this''. That was never going to happen with Mercedes and Renault already committed to this so rules went ahead.

Bernie has done things wrong but gets unnecessary blame for things that are **** all to do with him, such as these engine regs. Both he and Ferrari said it was totally the wrong direction, they'd sound ****, be very expensive and most fans wouldn't like them. They where 100% right, and like you say...they can only say ''I told you so''.

Only 4 engines per car per season yet they costs an outrageous 20 million per season! Teams do less running in fear of lunching an engine so for the people paying good money to watch friday-sunday, we just don't see the cars all that much. Even if the teams WANT to drive their cars, they're so limited on mileage. It's ridiculous. Early 2000s when V10s where being developed at every weekend almost, an engine cost between €180-250k pending the manufacturer. At that rate, we could have a new engine per car every weekend and still spend only HALF what these stupid hybrids cost. It's madness. These hybrid engines where supposed to be a lot cheaper that's why the small teams voted along for them, but cost more than doubled. It's bankrupted teams. When teams like Sauber with over 100 million budget can't make ends meet...what the **** are we doing here?
What the heck are "we" doing here? Green technology? Give me a freakin' break! How much carbon is burned every season just moving the circus from one continent to the other? But, but, but, the engines are really green!!! Foolishness on stilts!

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Originally Posted by Bas Jaski View Post
Again I read that we need these engines because manufacturers are interested. But they're not. None of the big manufacturers have expressed any kind of interest saying ''oh, F1 has gone hybrid, let's go join them''. Honda joined because of their history with Mclaren. That's gone well.
BINGO!

Hey, give them credit for trying but in the end, it was a miscalculation. All you got was MB, but what did you loose in the process? (How many viewers have dropped off over the last couple of years? Is it in the millions?)

And besides, haven't these PU's proven to be incredibly expensive?

-F
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  #51  
Old 03-22-2017, 07:25 AM
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MARCH 22, 2017

Todt agrees V10 return unthinkable




Jean Todt has joined fellow F1 boss Ross Brawn in saying a return of loud, normally-aspirated engines in the sport is "unthinkable".

The volume, complexity and expense of the current 'power unit' technology has been controversial since its inception, and talks about the rules beyond 2020 are set to begin.

But Brawn, who is F1's new sporting boss, said this week that going back to V8, V10 or V12 technology is "unthinkable".

"However, we are thinking about the evolution of the hybrid engine," he said.

Now, FIA president Todt has backed Brawn's prediction about the future of the F1 power unit.

"Everybody's vision is to try to do better for formula one," the Frenchman is quoted by the German news agency SID.

"We must think about new opportunities and innovations, and always look forward. But it is unthinkable to leave the hybrid engines -- the V10 and V12 of the past should stay in the past, even if it is unreasonable to spend money each year on new technologies," Todt added.

The FIA chief also praised F1's new owners Liberty Media, even though the sport's long-time supremo Bernie Ecclestone has been ousted.

"They have new ideas and are very professional, and will create new opportunities for communication," said Todt.

"The new cars? I think we will see a good show. Bernie Ecclestone gave a lot to formula one, but he gained a lot as well. Now I hope that at 86 he is happy to see his child in good hands," he added.

Finally, Todt spoke about the forthcoming FIA presidential elections, saying it is not a certainty that he will run.

"If there are younger people who want my place I'll have to think seriously," said the 71-year-old.
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  #52  
Old 03-22-2017, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEP View Post
MARCH 22, 2017

Todt agrees V10 return unthinkable




Jean Todt has joined fellow F1 boss Ross Brawn in saying a return of loud, normally-aspirated engines in the sport is "unthinkable".

The volume, complexity and expense of the current 'power unit' technology has been controversial since its inception, and talks about the rules beyond 2020 are set to begin.

But Brawn, who is F1's new sporting boss, said this week that going back to V8, V10 or V12 technology is "unthinkable".

"However, we are thinking about the evolution of the hybrid engine," he said.

Now, FIA president Todt has backed Brawn's prediction about the future of the F1 power unit.

"Everybody's vision is to try to do better for formula one," the Frenchman is quoted by the German news agency SID.

"We must think about new opportunities and innovations, and always look forward. But it is unthinkable to leave the hybrid engines -- the V10 and V12 of the past should stay in the past, even if it is unreasonable to spend money each year on new technologies," Todt added.

The FIA chief also praised F1's new owners Liberty Media, even though the sport's long-time supremo Bernie Ecclestone has been ousted.

"They have new ideas and are very professional, and will create new opportunities for communication," said Todt.

"The new cars? I think we will see a good show. Bernie Ecclestone gave a lot to formula one, but he gained a lot as well. Now I hope that at 86 he is happy to see his child in good hands," he added.

Finally, Todt spoke about the forthcoming FIA presidential elections, saying it is not a certainty that he will run.

"If there are younger people who want my place I'll have to think seriously," said the 71-year-old.
This is probably a reprint of what he said on March 8.....and has already been discussed at length in another forum I believe...but anyways
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  #53  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by singletrack View Post
Just go back and listen to the turbo motors of the 80s and 90s man. They sounded great and revved pretty high.

I am not denying that, but just reiterating the 2 facts:

- turbo act a mufflers and reduce the noise compared to a free flow atmo engine.

- turbo engines will never revs a high as an atmospheric engine, because of the counter-pressure in the exhaust system.

People who have worked in turbo engines, or adapted turbo to atmo engines know this.
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  #54  
Old 03-22-2017, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by furmano View Post
What the heck are "we" doing here? Green technology? Give me a freakin' break! How much carbon is burned every season just moving the circus from one continent to the other? But, but, but, the engines are really green!!! Foolishness on stilts!
It looks like you are barking up the wrong tree here ...

The move to introduce hybrid engines in F1 has never been made to save fuel in organising the championship.

Rightly or wrongly, the new power unit rules were chosen to accelerate the development of a new engine system, and to showcase the benefit of its application. What better place to test a new technology than at the pinnacle of motorsport?

The benefits are evident, in that present F1 cars can cover GP distances at comparable speed whilst using less than half the fuel their counterparts of 10 years ago.

Unfortunately, this development has been made in full view of F1 followers, with many failures, and gremlins witnessed by the public. Many people have expressed discontent and deserted F1, but the technical fall-out is undeniable.

The problem with F1 is that it tries to be too many things: a sport, an entertainment and a research laboratory. Many people only like the 2 first, but it's often the 3rd one that motivate constructors to participate.

I am sure that even the hopeless Honda engineers will have learnt something of their 3 years of struggle to come to understand the new technology. That justifies Honda's involvement in F1.
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  #55  
Old 03-23-2017, 03:54 AM
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MARCH 23, 2017

Liberty to sell paddock passes to the public




F1's new owners Liberty Media have followed through on a promise to start opening up the paddock to the public.

In the Bernie Ecclestone era, the now ousted 86-year-old fiercely guarded the sanctity of the paddock and the elusive 'passes' that provided rare access.

This approach has been criticised by some, including German motor racing legend Hans-Joachim Stuck.

"When the fans see how everything is sealed off, I can only say 'No wonder they leave F1 behind'," he told the German business magazine Sponsors.

However, as recently as last week, Ecclestone has been defending that philosophy.

"In F1, we have been running a five-star Michelin restaurant, not a hamburger joint," he told the Mail on Sunday.

Ecclestone hinted at the new approach to be taken by Liberty, saying "They have an American culture and at an American race everyone is in the paddock and the pits".

Indeed, it appears that Liberty is already changing tack.

The company announced ahead of the Australian grand prix that a new initiative called 'F1 Experiences' will give fans the ability to buy paddock access.

"We want people to experience the thrill of this exhilarating sport and that is what the programme will deliver," said Liberty's F1 commercial chief Sean Bratches.

But there is already resistance to Liberty's new approach.

One source told us a team sponsor thinks it will "devalue the currency" of F1, as paddock passes "are at the heart of most deals".

"Although they will still get them (passes), they won't be anywhere near as valuable because anyone will be able to buy access," the source added.

But Liberty Media seems determined to push ahead, with new F1 sporting boss Ross Brawn telling Auto Bild: "It's a fact that people need to get more for their money."
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  #56  
Old 03-23-2017, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by william View Post
I am not denying that, but just reiterating the 2 facts:

- turbo act a mufflers and reduce the noise compared to a free flow atmo engine.

- turbo engines will never revs a high as an atmospheric engine, because of the counter-pressure in the exhaust system.

People who have worked in turbo engines, or adapted turbo to atmo engines know this.
I'm aware. I'm one of those people ; )
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  #57  
Old 03-23-2017, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NEP View Post
MARCH 23, 2017

Liberty to sell paddock passes to the public




F1's new owners Liberty Media have followed through on a promise to start opening up the paddock to the public.

In the Bernie Ecclestone era, the now ousted 86-year-old fiercely guarded the sanctity of the paddock and the elusive 'passes' that provided rare access.

This approach has been criticised by some, including German motor racing legend Hans-Joachim Stuck.

"When the fans see how everything is sealed off, I can only say 'No wonder they leave F1 behind'," he told the German business magazine Sponsors.

However, as recently as last week, Ecclestone has been defending that philosophy.

"In F1, we have been running a five-star Michelin restaurant, not a hamburger joint," he told the Mail on Sunday.

Ecclestone hinted at the new approach to be taken by Liberty, saying "They have an American culture and at an American race everyone is in the paddock and the pits".

Indeed, it appears that Liberty is already changing tack.

The company announced ahead of the Australian grand prix that a new initiative called 'F1 Experiences' will give fans the ability to buy paddock access.

"We want people to experience the thrill of this exhilarating sport and that is what the programme will deliver," said Liberty's F1 commercial chief Sean Bratches.

But there is already resistance to Liberty's new approach.

One source told us a team sponsor thinks it will "devalue the currency" of F1, as paddock passes "are at the heart of most deals".

"Although they will still get them (passes), they won't be anywhere near as valuable because anyone will be able to buy access," the source added.

But Liberty Media seems determined to push ahead, with new F1 sporting boss Ross Brawn telling Auto Bild: "It's a fact that people need to get more for their money."
The star belly sneeches will be so upset!
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  #58  
Old 03-27-2017, 05:27 AM
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MARCH 27, 2017

Liberty will not set F1 rules says Todt



Jean Todt has made clear the FIA will continue to make the rules in formula one.

As the Liberty Media era begins in earnest, new F1 sporting boss Ross Brawn said in Melbourne he is prepared to "fight" for changes if the spectacle is not right.

FIA president Todt, also in Melbourne, responded: "I'm glad the Liberty people are thinking about the future.

"I am willing to listen to their thoughts about the regulations," the Frenchman is quoted by Auto Motor und Sport, "just as I respect any input from any side.

"But the final responsibility will always be in the hands of the FIA," Todt insisted. "We make and control the rules."

The next set of rules is already being thought about because, while the new cars are more aggressive looking and faster, most agree that the spectacle could suffer due to one-stop races and a lack of overtaking.

Todt admitted that is a problem.

"The cars are more spectacular and faster," he said, "but I'm a bit worried about the racing and the gaps between the teams.

"As nice as it is that Mercedes has an opponent in Ferrari, the gap of 2 seconds from the midfield to the top is too much.

"Another thing that surprised me is that we were promised a time improvement of up to 5 seconds, but pole was only 1.7 seconds beneath last year's time. Perhaps this is due to the circuit only," Todt added.

Nonetheless, rule changes are already being discussed, including the dire need for cheaper, simpler and louder engines to satisfy the trackside spectators.

But Todt insists F1 is actually in good health.

"Your question implies that we are talking about a dying sport," he said. "The organiser in Melbourne sold 300,000 tickets, where last year it was only 220,000.

"The media centre is also full, so there is no crisis here. Why do we always see only the negative? Let a few races pass and then we can make a judgement."
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  #59  
Old 04-04-2017, 07:42 AM
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Nice to hear this as these words never came out of Bernie's mouth - Formula 1 commercial chief Sean Bratches has said Liberty Media will do everything in their power to help all circuits provide a better experience for the fans.

Bratches: Some races need better promotion | PlanetF1 : PlanetF1
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  #60  
Old 04-04-2017, 07:56 AM
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Nice to hear this as these words never came out of Bernie's mouth - Formula 1 commercial chief Sean Bratches has said Liberty Media will do everything in their power to help all circuits provide a better experience for the fans.

Bratches: Some races need better promotion | PlanetF1 : PlanetF1


Happy that they are thinking of the Fans.

"Bratches is also keen to see cities, not just the tracks, embrace Formula 1 when it comes to town and give all fans "extraordinary experiences".

“Our promoters are a significant component of how this business operates and an important partner in terms of going back to the theme of fans and how our brand touches fans,” Bratches added."
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