McLaren's Troubles

I wonder if its Honda, not wanting to bring in external design for the PU? In the 80's it took them from 1983 to 1987 to really be competitive... so we are in year 3, now, but even back then when they ran with Lotus and Williams they showed speed and power... in the early 80's with Spirit and Group C, they had lots of spectacular failures.. but their engineers were learning. they took a lot of info from Brian Hart though.. and made it theirs.. wonder if that is the problem, they don't have a sound foundation to start from?

 

I think at first Mclaren requested an engine that would fit into their concept (size zero). It looks like this concept was abandoned at some point last year, however...I've got to go with complete and utter incompetence on Honda's part. Surely, SURELY, they'd develop an engine on the side (long ago!) to show Mclaren what their engine could do if they abandoned their size zero concept. It doesn't appear this happened, only going by their stupid mono piston rig...wtf!

 

I think Honda is correct when they said they underestimated the task. When they found the big problems last Christmas they haven't had time to correct them before the testing season.

IMO, probably one of the biggest mistakes in F1 history.

The Mac chassis seems pretty good but its really not been tested. Alonso was forced out of China not by an engine failure but by a chassis failure. The excuse is McLaren hasn't had enough track time to sort out the chassis issues.

The fact that they are so slow because of the engine being down on power means they can't really judge the tire temps, brakes, and aero effects. Its a viscous circle that is not going to end anytime soon.

 

Anyone else noticed how mclaren's airbox is much smaller than others?

 

That's because Alonso's air box has been so large!

 

Total failure from Honda. Built their team wrong. Wrong culture within team for F1. Wrong design approach - mono cylinder yay. Bad QA. Bad implementation. Worse adaption to problems. Poor PR.

Really I never would have predicted anything this bad for any engine manufacturer. Heads should roll for this one.

 

So the story goes that Honda built a single cylinder engine to test their engine concept and that went well, but when they turned this into a v6 the vibration and performance were way off expectation. They don't know how to fix it and are properly stuck. It's a desperate situation.

 

I remember when even Ferrari could not get out of their own way for a couple
of years, but it was not THIS bad.... yikes.

And Ron Dennis is laughing all the way to the bank... no, but seriously,
I doubt Ron Dennis is laughing...

 

How can they make winning engines on Indy and such disastrous engine in F1? I know there are very significant differences between them but c'mon, honda has enough technology/know-how to make it happen...

 

Seeing how they operate in the aerospace industry that statement says it all. The tales regarding Japanese engineers standing around the copy machines at Boeing are legendary.

Copying and making incremental improvements is easy compared to designing from scratch.

 

What's the story on this one?

There's nothing left to be said about their F1 program. Tragic that because of them a great team like McLaren is running around with a pretty good chassis at the back of the grid.

 

F1 engines are ridiculously (needlessly) complex

If we had a twin turbo V6 with basic KERS Honda would be right in the mix.

 

WOW!!! Did Alonso just parked the car before the finish line in Bahrain so he wouldn't finish last?

F1 Feature - Bahrain Grand Prix: The Debrief

When will enough be enough for… Honda?

The Fernando Alonso-McLaren-Honda saga is one that has gripped, frustrated and amused F1 for more than two years now, but it is a story that is predominantly told from the perspective of the driver. In fairness, Alonso spent a long time in those first two seasons deflecting awkward questions from the media about the Honda power unit, the mantra of 'it will get better' keeping his spirits up even when the form slipped.

However, Alonso has well and truly detached himself from the party line this year and his rhetoric in the opening three rounds about the Honda engine has stepped up to increasingly hyperbolic levels, whether he is 'driving like an animal' or apparently losing 400m in a straight line.

Now comes paddock speculation that Alonso's 'retirement' two laps from home in the Bahrain Grand Prix was in fact him simply parking it because he didn't want to be classified last. To say Honda are unimpressed is an understatement.

Which begs the question – instead of Alonso wanting out, will Honda consider whether it needs Alonso's barrage of public shaming for another contract term? Given McLaren and Stoffel Vandoorne are prepared to defend Honda and pull in the same direction, though Alonso's opposing actions are arguably refreshing in the corporate world of modern F1, it is plunging morale to a new low.

On the weekend, Alonso basked in the glow of the getting his Indy 500 deal secured, he may want to remember it would not have been possible without Honda's input.

 

so no basis in fact, then

 

Except Honda has not said what took Alonso out of the race.

 

This is what happens when testing is limited. Back markers, even those with unlimited funds cannot get back to mid-field.

Had this been 1988, Honda would have had a competitive engine mid-late last year--after burning up about 100 of them figuring things out. As it is, maybe sometime in 2019 Honda will have a decent engine.

 

It was stated on the UK coverage (Ted Kravitz on Sky) that Alonso had apparently told some Spanish journalists close to him that he would retire the car near the end of the race this year if he wasn't in the points.

Jonathan

 

But Mercedes and Ferrari are successful at building engines with the same rules and restrictions.

No, it's Honda not doing a good enough job.

 

So while everybody is ripping on Honda, do you guys think Brawm GP (Honda chassis) would have won the championship if it had retained the Honda engine instead of Mercedes power? Me thinks not.

 

Well at least he didn't electrocute anyone at Honda or McLaren like they did to him in testing in 2015. LOL!

No but seriously, I use to think it was BS. Then met someone who knows people at McLaren...now I think they shocked him.

Seriously...he has literally been tortured by them.

It begins:

FREE ALONSO!!!

 

If Honda is the engine provider, I blame Honda. Apparently they are having mechanical and PU issues.

 

Disagree. The last time Honda tried to build a competitive F1 engine, they competed from 2000 through 2008, simple high revving V8s, and still couldn't build a competitive engine.

That period was the last that Honda built competitive engines - their turbos evolved well to be all conquering, and their follow-on normally aspirated V12s were powerful too, but thirsty, and their last season was 1992.

Bingo - since they came back in 2000 with BAR, and also powering Jordan in 2001 and 02, the Honda engines never matched Ferrari or Mercedes (in the McLarens). I recall multiple quotes from Brawn about how much better the Mercedes engine was than the Honda when they hacked the Mercedes into the back of the 2009 Honda-Brawn chassis, with better power and driveability.

However - the double diffuser chassis gave them a big advantage, which was somewhat compromised on aero efficiency when they had to plunk in the larger Mercedes engine - the number I heard was that the Honda/Honda combination would have been a half second per lap faster on average than the Brawn/Mercedes was, because of that aero impact of the engine change. Whether that initial aero advantage would have held up and made up for a Honda engine deficiency as the other teams developed their double diffusers is a great question for an armchair racing session.

It remains, though, that after 1992, Honda was crap at building F1 engines when they returned for 2000-2008 - I recall commenting when McLaren announced the return of Honda for 2015 that I didn't see why many people seemed to assume that Honda would be making a fabulous engine in 2015 just because their 30 years older V6 turbo was dominant, since they weren't able to build a decent engine when they subsequently tried, even over a 9 year long effort.

 

Difference is that Honda already has a good twin turbo V6 in Indycar. I think that is part of the reason people believe that to be true. How well that engine/design would be adapted, I don't know because the Indycars are heavier and fatter.

Models: Honda HI17R Indy-V-6
Type: 2.2-liter (234.35 cubic inches) V-6, twin-turbocharged, Max. bore diameter 95 millimeters
Weight: Minimum weight is 248 pounds.
Turbocharging: Twin BorgWarner 6758 turbochargers
RPM: 12,000 maximum (INDYCAR-supplied rev limiter)
Maximum Boost Pressure (above atmosphere): 300 mbar / 4.35 psi (Superspeedways); 400 mbar / 5.8 psi (Short Ovals); 500 mbar / 7.25 psi (Road/Street Courses); 600 mbar / 8.70 psi (Push-To-Pass)
Power: Estimated 550-700 horsepower depending on turbo boost used at track.
Fuel: Sunoco E85R fuel (blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline)
Injector: Maximum two injectors per cylinder, one for direct injection, 300 bar maximum fuel system pressure, 4351 psi
ECU (Engine Control Unit): McLaren Applied Technologies TAG 400i
Throttle: Drive-by-wire controlled port throttles