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  #1  
Old 02-20-2004, 07:41 PM
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Why do F1 cars have such high RPMs?

Only newly initaited to the televised pleasure of Formula One racing, I often wondered why F1 cars have such incredibly high revs. Couldn't the same level of thrust be achieved with more torque, considering the cars already have 800+ horses from only 3 liter engines (at least the F-2000)? Does it have something to do with greater control, as opposed to big cc engines or boosted autos? Or is it something unique to the racetracks that demands such a rev band, as opposed to the big ovals?

CART and Indy cars don't seem to have anywhere near the rev range, but I'm sure they approach the same top speeds, if not higher.

I've ruled out the idea, though sensible to me, that F1 teams simply enjoy that unequalled metal symphony.

Many thanks for your expertise,

JPR

Last edited by Cavallini; 02-20-2004 at 07:44 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-20-2004, 07:53 PM
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I'm sure an F1 car can reach 230 mph if the aero was adjusted. Not quite sure about the revs. Maybe it has to do with their acceleration?
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  #3  
Old 02-20-2004, 07:55 PM
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Why do F1 cars rev so high?

In an internal combustion, torque is approximately
proportional to displacement. However, power is
the product of torque times the maximum
angular speed of the motor (Max RPM). So
doubling the RPM doubles the power.

rdsherman (physicist)
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  #4  
Old 02-20-2004, 07:59 PM
PSk PSk is offline
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Hmmm, okay lets start from the top.

In a race series where the rules stipulate a maximum engine size this also in all reality stipulate the amount of torque the engines are going to produce, thus the only advantage you can gain on the opposition is more power via extra engine revs ... which leads to gearing advantages and actual torque improvements at the rear wheels (via the gearbox ratios, etc.).

Torque is simply, T = F x D, where F = force, and D = distance.

In a reciprocating engine, force equals the combustion force and distance is the radius of the crankshaft.

Thus an engine designer can play around with bore stroke ratios, and a larger bore will give a larger force (due to increased surface area on top of the piston), but in reality they all probably are not that different in bore/stroke ratios and there would be a practical limit on the maximum combustion bang you could get for a 10 cylinder engine of 3000cc. Thus torque will be basically the same for all teams and engines of that size, that breath as well, etc.

Thus if you can pull say 500 rpm more than the other team, that means that you can gear your car so that at the similar top speeds your engine is revving 500 rpm higher. So what you say well, what that extra rpm means is that you have a better ratio in the gearbox that allows slightly higher engine torque to push the driving wheels ... thanks to the mechanical advantage of a gearbox.

On top of that you get that same advantage with all the intermediate gears and thus will have a slight acceleration advantage!!!

Pete
ps: Why do CART engines not rev the same. COST!, far tighter engine rules to keep the cost down ...

Last edited by PSk; 02-20-2004 at 08:04 PM.
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  #5  
Old 02-21-2004, 08:59 AM
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Do any of you know how or when the FIA check the team engines to ensure they don't exceed the 3 liter capacity?
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  #6  
Old 02-21-2004, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles27
Do any of you know how or when the FIA check the team engines to ensure they don't exceed the 3 liter capacity?
Jack,

I have read that the FIA will perform checks of engine swept volume at the Mfg. facility for the engine. Then at random on race weekends they can go and and insert a depth gauge and a device that expands to measure the cyl bore thru the spark plug hole and calculate swept volume of the engine.

Rob
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  #7  
Old 02-21-2004, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
Hmmm, okay lets start from the top.

In a race series where the rules stipulate a maximum engine size this also in all reality stipulate the amount of torque the engines are going to produce, thus the only advantage you can gain on the opposition is more power via extra engine revs ... which leads to gearing advantages and actual torque improvements at the rear wheels (via the gearbox ratios, etc.).

Torque is simply, T = F x D, where F = force, and D = distance.

In a reciprocating engine, force equals the combustion force and distance is the radius of the crankshaft.

Thus an engine designer can play around with bore stroke ratios, and a larger bore will give a larger force (due to increased surface area on top of the piston), but in reality they all probably are not that different in bore/stroke ratios and there would be a practical limit on the maximum combustion bang you could get for a 10 cylinder engine of 3000cc. Thus torque will be basically the same for all teams and engines of that size, that breath as well, etc.

Thus if you can pull say 500 rpm more than the other team, that means that you can gear your car so that at the similar top speeds your engine is revving 500 rpm higher. So what you say well, what that extra rpm means is that you have a better ratio in the gearbox that allows slightly higher engine torque to push the driving wheels ... thanks to the mechanical advantage of a gearbox.

On top of that you get that same advantage with all the intermediate gears and thus will have a slight acceleration advantage!!!

Pete
ps: Why do CART engines not rev the same. COST!, far tighter engine rules to keep the cost down ...

Thanks Pete, I forgot about the size constraints. Higher RPMS would be the only and best way to increase performance.
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  #8  
Old 02-21-2004, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavallini
CART and Indy cars don't seem to have anywhere near the rev range, but I'm sure they approach the same top speeds, if not higher.
The top speed of an F1 car is limited by aerodynamics, so while they may aproach higher top speeds they couldn't possibly turn the way F1 cars do, i'm pretty sure given the aerodynamic eficiency of F1 cars that they would have no trouble going faster than an indy car if setup of an oval.
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  #9  
Old 02-21-2004, 01:52 PM
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Thanks Rob. That's interesting. I figured it would be too easy to try and slip an illegal engine past the Regs, right? Another thing that interests me that I'd like to see on TV is a step-by-step piece on the actual post-qualifying impound and pre-race release of all the cars. As a fan, I see the cars on the track qualifying. Then I'll see the occasional impound photo of all the cars neatly arranged. The next time you see the cars, they're in their respective garages. It would be interesting to see them "fill in the blanks" and show what actually transpires in the interim.
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  #10  
Old 02-21-2004, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skelter
The top speed of an F1 car is limited by aerodynamics, so while they may aproach higher top speeds they couldn't possibly turn the way F1 cars do, i'm pretty sure given the aerodynamic eficiency of F1 cars that they would have no trouble going faster than an indy car if setup of an oval.
I want to add that the maximum speed reached by a F1, besides the aerodynamics, comes in function of the combination of its box of changes and of the circuit. If you put I aim a F-1 under conditions, and you give him a straight line of 15Km, it will surely reach the 400Km/h, but this in a race is impossible, for blame of the adjustments in the car, which should enter in curved slow and closed, in open and quick and the longest straight line in a circuit, never reaches the 2Km.

To take as example the adjustments of the F2003-GA of Schumacher in the bereavement against the Eurofighter. The Scuderia prepared it to achieve the 273Km/h, in a long straight line of an airport and if it didn't achieve its objective, it was by reason of the rain that didn't allow him to achieve the one it grabs correct.

Greetings
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  #11  
Old 02-21-2004, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles27
Another thing that interests me that I'd like to see on TV is a step-by-step piece on the actual post-qualifying impound and pre-race release of all the cars.
Jack,

In the book by peter Wright "Formula 1 Technology" Chapter 19 is all about the impound and inspection procedures that go on in F1.

But i do agrre with you i would like to see them in action inspecting the cars that would be very interesting, but i hate to say it that the teams would say no since it would possibly allow the competition to see what they are doing under the skin of the car.

Rob
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  #12  
Old 02-21-2004, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles27
Do any of you know how or when the FIA check the team engines to ensure they don't exceed the 3 liter capacity?
The cars are scutineered all of the time. The other teams rat on each other if they think anything is outside the rules (Ferrari barge boards for example) and the cars have things built into them to allow checks to be done. For example the ride height is controlled by the rules and to check it all F1 cars have a piece of timber under them. If it wears (I think by more than 2mm but could be wrong here) during a race the car ride will be deemed to be outside of the rules and will be disqualified.

There is a great of money sloshing around, rules, breakinf them and forcing others to adhere is a big thing.
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  #13  
Old 02-21-2004, 08:23 PM
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Does it also have to do with the amount of power coming out of a turn? Meaning you have the extra RPM's to run a gear out threw a turn so you have a constant accelartion?(without have to shift)
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  #14  
Old 02-21-2004, 08:49 PM
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I heard that Honda, in the 80s claimed they were running a 500cc motorcycle engine with oval pistons. I also heard it was about 650ccs, and they didn't get caught. The factory 500cc Suzukis were also rumoured to be a bit oversize also. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the engines were a little large. Especially on the slower teams.

Art
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Old 02-21-2004, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ART355
I heard that Honda, in the 80s claimed they were running a 500cc motorcycle engine with oval pistons. I also heard it was about 650ccs, and they didn't get caught. The factory 500cc Suzukis were also rumoured to be a bit oversize also. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the engines were a little large. Especially on the slower teams.

Art

Speak of the devil... This is a great pic of the oval-piston internals. Each oval piston has two connecting rods. IIRC, Honda was actually going to sell a few of these for street use but I'm not sure that ever happened.

http://www.sportbikes.dhs.org/index....cture_ID=20217

-Jeff
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  #16  
Old 02-22-2004, 09:54 AM
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The problem Honda had with the oval piston engine was the fact that the rings were very difficult to produce and properly seal against the cylinder wall. From what i understood the rings had to be made and fitted to the cylinder and piston by hand. One other problem the engine had was the crankshaft would twist slightly from inertia if the rider down shifted to quickly or the rear wheel left the track surface under power. The crankshaft would twist and now the piston was running in the bore crooked and would scuff the piston and cause rings to break.

A very brilliant design but i feel way to ahead of its time. One side note when Honda stated that they wanted to get into Champ car racing. CART went and put into the rule book "No oval pistons allowed!" almost instantly.
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2004, 06:25 PM
PSk PSk is offline
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Okay I have to disagree that the Honda Oval piston engines was a great feat of engineering or clever design.

First of all it was produced to get around a rule that limited the manufacturers to a maximum of 4 cylinders.

Second of all the only reason it produced more power is because it effectively is a v8 and we all know that the more cylinders the more volumetric efficient an engine will be. This engine has more piston surface contact area than a v8 (compare the oval pistons to 2 round pistons) thus more friction, has the same number of conrods, same number of valves and spark plugs ... and negatively has a dead period in the combustion chamber which would be hard to effectively fill for complete and efficient combustion ... also as already mentioned extremely difficult to seal that shape for the piston rings.

Thus very clever that they could actually build it at all ... but again if the rules had allowed Honda to build a 2 pistons firing at the same time v8, Honda would have built one and made MORE power and had normal reliability.

A white elephant that proves nothing IMO.
Pete

Last edited by PSk; 02-22-2004 at 06:28 PM.
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  #18  
Old 02-22-2004, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
Second of all the only reason it produced more power is because it effectively is a v8 and we all know that the more cylinders the more volumetric efficient an engine will be. Pete
Is this true... I thought the number of cylinders has little, to nothing, to do with volumetric effeciency? My understanding is that its more about... well theres lots of factors like cams and intake etc almost anything, but not the number of cylinders. I'm confused
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  #19  
Old 02-22-2004, 06:49 PM
PSk PSk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluekawala
Is this true... I thought the number of cylinders has little, to nothing, to do with volumetric effeciency? My understanding is that its more about... well theres lots of factors like cams and intake etc almost anything, but not the number of cylinders. I'm confused
The more cylinders an engine has the more pumping efficiency it will have ... but there are many negatives too, like cooling, etc.

Basically it is because the revolving mass will be lighter, because the pistons, conrods/valves, etc. will be lighter, etc.

Pete
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  #20  
Old 02-22-2004, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
The more cylinders an engine has the more pumping efficiency it will have ... but there are many negatives too, like cooling, etc.

Basically it is because the revolving mass will be lighter, because the pistons, conrods/valves, etc. will be lighter, etc.

Pete

Interesting, thanks!
You never know what you'll learn on the marvelous F-chat!

Happy driving
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