Honda Motors America/ Acura | FerrariChat

Honda Motors America/ Acura

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by Turbo360, Jul 22, 2014.

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  1. Turbo360

    Turbo360 Formula Junior
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    When was the last time any of you felt motivated to walk into a Acura dealership ? and did I see correctly that a lot of their heir high end products do not even have Air conditioned seats ?


    Going back to
    1988 The Acura Legend Coupe
    1990 The Acura NSX


    Those really set the mark for not only its rivals at Toyota / Lexus & Nissan's Infiniti bring those cars into the USA market but I just recently looked at Acura's sales #'s and they are #'s that suggest they are in serious problems or ?

    Honda has no issues in the sales #'s but when I looked at the sales #'s for Acura, there is no way the New NSX or a re-do of the TSX will completely change this sales # ?.
     
  2. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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  3. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    I think their problems go way beyond air conditioned seats.

    they need a new Integra/RSX. when they got rid of the small, light premium hot hatch is when the brand went to crap IMO.

    btw I saw a Legend coupe in a parking lot a few weeks ago....what a great car. it's tiny compared to today's luxury coupe standards!
     
  4. Sfumato

    Sfumato F1 World Champ

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    Agreed. Nothing to aspire to. Toyota has Scion and Lexus, Nissan has Infinti (which has improved since beginning, but original Q45 was great car). Acura front ends ugly as he11, premium price without content.

    NSX is vaporware. Idiotic.

    Legend was great. New whatever they call it needed 8, now needs turbo 6. Gearboxes old too. Honda has lost way. Civic has new body again after fail a year or 2 ago, but has ancient motor and 5spd auto? Really? Used to be BMW-like with low cost engineering, now meh. Sad.
     
  5. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    the vaporware NSX is going to be a case study in everything that is wrong with Honda today.
     
  6. futureowner

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    Speaking from experience with an RSX, you were most definitely treated like a second class citizen at the Acura dealership when you came in. I have been to a few dealerships and seemingly they only cater to the polo shirt, khaki, loafer and white hair group.

    I don't know what they aspire to be now, basically I used to see them as a slightly sportier Lexus but now, I have no idea what the point of Acura really is. They hit a high about 10 years ago with the RSX, TL, etc and then went the way of corporate badging via ugly grilles and MDXs.
     
  7. rdefabri

    rdefabri Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The problem is very similar to Cadillac in the 80's, and carrying into the 90's - platform sharing. I'm sorry, but no one will pay a premium for a rebadged Cavalier.

    Acura has done a better job of hiding that the ILX is really a rebadged Civic, but the enthusiast customer knows better. They aren't paying a premium for that.

    They also do not have a high end sedan to compete with the Lexus LS / Audi A8 / Mercedes S Class. No V8 either.

    The product nomenclature is meaningless - what is a "TSX" vs. a "TLX"?? I only remember the "RLX" because I think the commercial said "Real Luxury" (RLX)...vanilla at best.

    Recall that Infiniti had a VERY similar problem. They saved themselves with the G35 - a BMW fighter with a manual transmission and a high powered V6.

    Acura needs to trim the line completely. One SUV stays (the MDX), get rid of the mid-level sedan (TSX or TLX, or whatever the hell it is). I would blow the ILX into the weeds...it's a CIVIC for goodness sake. Seems to me that only Lexus can do this with the rebadged Camry / ES twins...otherwise, it's a fool's game (Cimmaron or Catera anyone?).

    Big executive sedan with a V8. Even Hyundai has one and it's pretty good (even though it doesn't sell well). The Genesis could be an Acura, it's a shame Honda can't build something that looks a little nicer.

    The angular styling is horrible. Chris Bangle horrible IMHO. Cadillac nailed the sharp edges look, but it has been controversial and not to everyone's liking (I love it).

    I don't have figures, but from what I see, no one is driving an Acura outside of the MDX. Trim the line and create a brand specific model (no sharing). Otherwise, shutter the brand, clearly not working for them.
     
  8. SWB

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    I think Honda/Acura has been phoning it in for the last couple of years. Where did all that engineering mojo go?
     
  9. Mule

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    #9 Mule, Oct 21, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
    We traded an '08 TL-S (270 BHP, 6-speed) for a '12 TL SH-AWD (300 BHP, flappy paddles, AWD). Waited for the new grill, SATNAV that worked up here, and a dealership to open here. Great cars, great dealership service up here. 4-year warranty (usually no questioned asked), hand car wash every visit, loaner car, drop off and pick up, friendly service people, etc. Had BMW and Audi before; won't go back.

    Right now and the future? The new TLX missed the mark and is not an improvement of the TL, RLX is too obscure, ILX is a Civic, so we won't be trading soon, unless something new pops up.

    Certainly don't need air conditioned seats or any air conditioning for that matter.
     
  10. Sfumato

    Sfumato F1 World Champ

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    It's late October in TX, highs in mid-80's still. Ventilated seats necessary, as well as heat. Wife/kids are native Texans, and they're freezing in mid 50's. Why buy Honda/Acura when Hyundai and Kia offer great engineering, hard loaded, great warranty, and lower price point? Zero brand ID. Legend, Integra, NSX meant something.
     
  11. ScuderiaWithStickPlease

    ScuderiaWithStickPlease F1 World Champ

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    Integra Type R -- 2000-2001 preferred.

    RSX Type S -- 2005-2006 preferred.

    The problem with the Integra was that they were loosing ~$1K/vehicle. (I assume they dropped the RSX for similar reasons. I actually remember them advising 2-door Acura fans to look at the Civic Si, which had just gotten the K20.)
     
  12. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    There you go right there. They were basically telling a particular age group (high school,college students) to take a hike.

    Their cars are just ugly. My friends had one of the small suv's a few years ago and got rid of it pretty quickly. I can't remember, but it was missing some very very basic features that you'd see on the cheapest cars.
     
  13. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Isn't the US the only country that has Acura?

    They are all Honda models everywhere else, aren't they?

    The NSX was a Honda in Europe.
     
  14. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    #14 No Doubt, Oct 22, 2014
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    Honda self-funds an independent Honda R&D division in every region that they operate, and each R&D division is *entirely* free to work on whatever they want, not on something that would help the Honda brand.

    To me, Honda R&D resembles how Ferrari lives to fund its 800 F1 employees.

    Well, if you are getting funded (Ferrari F1) and have no direct obligations (Honda R&D), then you are sailing on the SS Cushy.

    And they've made a cool robot.

    The cars, however, have dated technology that makes their own statement. Ouch.

    Look at their pickup. OK, it's unibody and aluminum somewhat, but what they brag about is the double-hinged tailgate.

    Weak.

    That tailgate should have been made to lay down to the ground as a ramp like the back doors of enclosed race trailers. Then you could have dropped the tailgate and driven your 4-wheeler up into the pickup bed.

    Instead, they went to some great manufacturing expense to make a double-hinged tailgate...that does *what* for me, precisely??
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  15. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    #15 No Doubt, Oct 22, 2014
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    The new NSX burned to the ground in testing, but that doesn't begin to explain the exploding grenade shrapnel coming at the car occupants from the Takata airbags in so many Hondas on the road.

    That's not necessarily a quality defect, either. Might be a fundamental *design* flaw.

    It's bad.
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  16. Scotty

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    My wife had an original Integra. It wasn't the fastest thing, but it was just sweet (shifted great, smooth free revving motor, everything in the cabin punched above its price class). We had a first gen. MDX--not quite as good, but was the best handling (in my opinion) mid size SUV at the time (save the Mercedes, which was another 20K). But they have absolutely nothing that is even vaguely interesting at this point. Too bad--I remember when I was saving hard for a Legend coupe--my interest drifted, but that was a sweet car as well.
     
  17. Mule

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    #18 Mule, Oct 22, 2014
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    It is the same idea as the tailgates disappearing on SUVs. The buying public of these modern day station wagons do not want to lean over a tailgate to reach into the cargo area, because it isn't cargo anymore. It is groceries, strollers, shopping, and kids. I have an old Yukon with a tailgate, but GMC went to the cargo barn doors, then to a full liftgate. I am surprised this isn't on full-size US pickup trucks yet. The era of tailgating is dying. Or maybe it is full circle like the old station wagons that could open both ways. Or the '70s disappearing tailgates that slid away into the floor.

    Not a new idea at all.
     
  18. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This post sums it up for me, although Infiniti's output still seems pretty generic. Acuras and Infinitis kind of blend into the automotive landscape. They have a long way to go to compete with Audi - plus Audi now has serious modern racing credentials to build on its long history.

    And yes, the Acura styling is contrived and ugly.
     
  19. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    Pickups are predominantly male and work oriented; urban females are reluctant to drive them because they are harder to park.

    So if you are designing a tailgate you want to make work easier for males.

    Infiniti is cool; huge hp for the Dollar. Audi has racing credentials but quality problems (e.g. A4 motors).

    Honda/Acura has much larger problems.

    The American Big-3 (or 2) have legacy healthcare and pension expenses to overcome.

    For its part, Honda does one thing better than the others: cheap factories. I'm not sure that any automaker in the world can setup a new factory cheaper than Honda.

    ...but the output is bland and uninspiring.

    Honda had the Insight hybrid before Toyota had the Prius. How did the Prius win?!

    More obvious is that Honda came out with the 1990 NSX and has then coasted for the next couple dozen years.

    Honda brags about a new type of dehumidifying windshield defogger and a double-hinged tailgate.

    Oh boy.

    For being able to build the cheapest factories and for once coming out with the NSX, that's pretty weak tea to sip...and Honda has unproductive R&D expenses that are disproportionate to its size and profitability, much less its lack of innovation over the past two decades.

    If you aren't going to come out with anything innovative, why not cut out the R&D so that you can at least deliver lower prices?

    Honda should just admit that they are only going to blandly follow whatever the other automakers lead them to do.




    ...if they even survive this exploding airbag scandal.
     
  20. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Problem for Infiniti is that I and probably many others can't tell which are the new models and which are older. Neither it nor Acura have really stayed on my shopping list for very long. Every carmaker in the luxury segment offers more than enough hp for daily driver duties these days, so that on its own doesn't really draw me to Acura or Infiniti. "Bland" applies to both, IMHO.

    I'm probably back to Audi or Merc next time around, unless I can justify yet another two seater to the g/f.
     
  21. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    #22 No Doubt, Oct 23, 2014
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    Weak. Look, if you prefer "Audi" for whatever reason, fine...but on price, hp, and looks...especially looks...can you really tell the A4 convertible apart from Infiniti's Q60 convertible (shown below)?
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  22. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 GuyIncognito, Oct 23, 2014
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    not entirely correct-the first generation Prius, which was a sedan, came out 2 years before the first gen Insight.

    but how the Prius won, and why the Insight now looks like a Chinese copy of the Prius, is a great question.

    here's my theory: the Insight was built for engineers and the "innovators"...more cutting edge, better technology, more focused, but also less practical (smaller, 2 seat, not as much cargo room). it also had "weird" styling, with the rear wheel spats and so on.

    the first Prius was built for the "early adopters"....it was a 5 passenger sedan with a trunk, less sophisticated but more real-world practical. the second generation Prius built on this practicality, but in a package that was mainstream enough to sell but unique enough to let the world know exactly what it was.

    the 2nd gen Insight decided to just copy that idea completely...but why buy a copy when you can have the original?

    so Honda innovated for innovation's sake, customers be damned; and then when nobody bought their innovation, they went for the herd mentality. that says a lot about Honda's decision making process-and why they're in the position they're in.
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  23. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    I'm not sure what Acura's target demographic is. I don't really consider them luxury cars. Just regular cars with standard (right, they are not optional?) leather seats. The rest of the car's parts, including drivetrain, seem pretty run of the mill. Nothing high performance, sporty, RWD. Never been impressed sitting in one.
     
  24. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    You can't compare a 10 year old vehicle to a new one.

    Convertibles are inherently uglier than coupes anyway. My opinion of course.

    The new infinitis are nice but look bloated compared to others.
     

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