What is with the fascination with horsepower, irrespective of all else.

Because many people who are now old enough to buy cars grew up playing GranTurismo or Forza, and all they care about is absolute performance. Basically because of bragging rights, not because of how their car actually drives.

 

Horsepower is easy, especially in the case of the Tesla. Hit the go pedal in a straight line and the cars with big HP numbers accelerate ferociously. It is a cheap thrill. Most people are able to demonstrate performance in a car based on acceleration. It takes the least skill of any driving and has the biggest wow factor. Lots of people, even non-car people, can appreciate a fast car. They also want a nav system, comfy ride, comfy interior, automation, safety etc... All of that adds up to the fact that the average consumer, even for performance cars, doesn't want to make compromises.

A light weight car will always have compromises, whether it is price or comfort or overall performance, it is going to give up something to achieve the light weight. Most people aren't able to explore the performance gains provided by a lack of weight. And most lightweight cars have a narrow envelope of performance where they can outshine a heavier more powerful car. There is generally a lot more joy in driving these lightweight cars even though the performance envelope isn't as big.

Most people that can afford a performance car are at the point in their life where they don't want to make those types of compromises. They want a fast car that rides well and is comfortable. I think this is why the Nissan GT-R is a disappointment for many. The car is big, heavy, fast etc... but it rides like crap. For that kind of weight, you wouldn't expect to compromise the ride quality. If it weighed 3,000lbs and rode that way it would make sense.

Question: Even though the new Vette is heavier, is it outperformed by it's predecessor? If the new Vette beats the lighter car around the track does it matter that its a porker?

(I know there is joy to be found that can't be measured in numbers, just playing devils advocate. There is also the obvious concern about how long a big heavy car can run at full tilt before the weight catches up by eating brakes, tires etc...)

 

You always have trends that are artificially created in automotive industry, so thrill of future buyers is always on very high level.

Trends are organized through circles that are exchanging how time passes. In one moment you have smaller car trend, than bigger car trend, than cars with bigger & bigger engines, than louder & louder ones and so on.

Now we are facing transition from more power trend to more lightweight car.

 

For the majority of people, they want luxury and convenience. This means heated seats, navigation, a comfortable roomy interior, and power everything. All this adds weight. The government mandates safety standards that make cars very safe today, but it adds weight and bulk. Likewise the push to reduce noise, vibration, and harshness means more sound deadening, more advanced electronic suspension and steering systems, this too adds weight.

Add weight, must add horsepower and bigger brakes (more weight!). 100 hp/liter used to be considered remarkable for a NA car, today my lowly Accord four-banger almost has that. And the forced induction vehicles are really crazy, Ferrari is leading the way with nearly 200 hp/liter in the new 488.

 

The number of drivers who have the skills to appreciate the joys of lightweight sports cars carving through tricky corners is falling faster than the availability of 3 pedal cars on dealer lots.

My neighbor has never tracked his car or ever driven it around a corner at 7/10ths yet he dreams of another 200 or 300hp because he can afford it and it satisfies his male ego for "more"

 

Horsepower requirements of a 80's Top Fuel dragster to go 5.0 sec in a quarter mile was about 3000hp, today a 3.5 sec run takes about 10,000 hp. Horsepower goes almost exponential to gains in performance at some point. It's the basic reason the new Bugatti will probably need to have 1500 hp to have much of a real gain in performance over the old one. As long as Ferraris keep getting bigger and heavier, they will need more power just to have the same performance as the last smaller model. Now if they want to better it, they will need more power.

On a different note, I have often thought that Supercars have gotten bigger for the sole purpose of charging more money. I think it is a subconscious decision that people will automatically justify paying more for a larger supercar with high horsepower. It seems to be, bigger + more power = big money. The exception to this is the Sesto Elemento Lamborghini, IMO the perfect car.

 

It's an American thing. The cars couldn't handle the twisties so the quarter mile times became número uno. It's all marketing.

Really.

 

Funny I wrote something like this on the Abarth Forum. It took me a long time to realize that I enjoyed saying I owned cars like Ferrari's and Lamborghini's more than I enjoyed driving them mostly because they are not that much fun when driven the way I had to where I live. The 997 I turned into a car so loud, fast, and scary that it wants to kill you if you're not paying attention spends more and more time in the garage, not because I am afraid of it, but because what I did to it does not make it the most comfortable car to drive, you feel everything. I see no reason for cars that are given so much power that it takes skills (99% of the buyers will never have) to use but it is marketing. I enjoy the little modified Abarth more than I ever enjoyed the exotic cars I owned and the 650i coupe I recently picked up (and added the Dinan stuff) drives like a 2 ton freight train it's certainly got power but Keith is right it does not have performance, that is a different thing. Performance seems to have different meanings to different people and to me cars like the Elise and the Miata (and the 997 I rebuilt) have it. I think I have come to terms with the fact I am past the age I needing that in a car at least most of the time. The male ego is a very thing and mine cost me plenty until I grew up enough to learn to control it. But don't think for a second marketers are not aware of it and try everything they can to use yours to their advantage.

 

I also drive/love my lotus elise. But...

Its like a tin can where every bump in road seems like it will break car in half. No one ever wants to be a passenger in it. A fender bender can total the car. Can barely fit a briefcase in it. They sold very poorly when they were offered. Only works for me because i have other cars too. And safety regulations are probably biggest issue facing industry.

Besides, 0-60 has been most important metric since forever. So need big hp

 

Hillbilly 'merica. Poser capital of the world.

 

DOT, insurance industry all mandate certain safety measures. For example, Higher door sills, you no longer can comfortably hang your arm on top of the door while driving, this protects the occupants more. Which adds weight along with stronger intrusion bars located inside a door, have you ever picked up a modern door by itself its no MGB anymore. Higher headlamps and not many flip up lights anymore all raising the front ends making the car seem larger. Convertibiles need to be stronger for not only flexing but to survive a roll over, again its no longer a MGB. Air bags, not only for the driver and passenger but side curtains and rear passenger as well, all add weight that weren't accounted before. ECMs BCMs sensors that control engine emissions. TMPS tire pressures sensors, back up cameras. Traction control with ABS for slippery conditions all required by safety concerns, these all mean extra weight that need additional force to meet the same or even better performance than what we had just a few years ago.

A Z28 Camaro today weighs close to 4000Lbs, 300Lbs less than a standard ZL1Camaro
A 1969 Z28 weighs around 2800Lbs, but will get spanked by the newer bigger more comfortable safer and get better fuel economy to boot. Unfortunately a 2015Z costs 13 times more than a 69Z, but that's another subject.

Your F40 would never get built today, forget about passing DOT or TUV not going to happen, better keep her. It would need another 250hp just to keep up, LOL.

2014 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 unveiled with lightweight body and hard power - SlashGear





ZL1
RWD MSRP1 Starting from $60,555




Build & Price


Dimensions

ZL1


Base Curb Weight
4374 lbs

Trunk Volume
10.20 ft3

Height, Overall
54.70 in

Length, Overall
190.6 in

Track Width, Front
63.70 in

Track Width, Rear
63.70 in

Wheelbase
112.30 in

Width, Max w/o mirrors
75.50 in

Front Head Room
37.80 in

Front Leg Room
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Passenger Capacity
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Rear Head Room
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Rear Leg Room
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Rear Shoulder Room
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Hello, I know you are being sarcastic, but for GM to build a ZO6 Corvette with all the mandated nanny stuff that can be competive to a Porsche Cayman GT4 (which is a Fantastic car) for a lot less money is a "really big fxxxxxg deal" as our esteemed Vice President said.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/03/porsche-cayman-gt4-gets-911-gt3-components/

 

HP rules and is fun.

 

Actually the Cadillac engineers have gone to great lengths to create the lightest sport sedan in the segment. My new ATS is lighter than its German competition and you can feel that in the way it drives. Combined with excellent feel in both the brakes and steering and you have a fun DD.
I'd love to see GM do a "clubsport" Corvette(no forced induction, less amenities, lightweight seats,glass,wheels,etc). The C7 is a great platform and would be even better for track use in such a light version.

Oh how times have changed. GM is generally acknowledged to be building the sport sedans with the best driving dynamics, the Camaro and Corvette handle as good as anything and the new Mustang GT is being compared very favorably with the M cars.

 

Dumb people don't look at the car specs overall. They look at HP and 0-60 figures when buying a new car. If they have a 458 and the new 488 didn't gain any significant hp and the 0-60 stayed the same, they wouldn't buy it (or that's what the marketing man believes). Don't worry about the car actually being faster where it matters...

We're awfully close to 1000hp entry level Ferrari's.

I fully understand that tire/brake tech has improved significantly in the last 15 years and cars so an improve in power is fully warranted, but 300hp and nearly double the torque is just ridiculous.

I wish for the HP race to end. Add lightness instead.

 

People like torque but buy horsepower.

 

An engine doesn't produce horsepower, it produces torque. Horsepower is the sum of the formula: HP = Torque X RPM/5252.

 

I think you guys have a lot of good points.

I'm not a fan of the ever-increasing horsepower wars, though I do understand the marketing value.

I'm also in the habit of asking someone what their car weighs whenever they quote a horsepower figure... surprisingly few know the answer. I guess you wouldn't have much luck selling Harvey Homeowner a car by talking about roll center.

I find very few new cars appealing, for the following reasons:

• Features that serve to insulate you from the joy of driving while enhancing safety for the distracted and unaware.
• Regulatory compliance issues that lead to high beltlines and a tiny greenhouse with gun-slit windows.
• Accessories of dubious value that require giant batteries, alternators and loads of heavy wiring.
• Designs that look like they came out of a wind tunnel program with no thought to style.
• Front ends that look menacing with giant fake air inlets.

Well, they're selling the fantasy of a lifestyle ... via what are mostly basic transportation appliances. Ever notice how many car ads suggest that your daily driver will determine how you're judged by society? I don't even know what half of my coworkers drive. "Performance" cars are sold with more than a suggestion of aggressiveness... I always thought they were just "fun".

It's really lost on me.

I'm actively in the market for more cars, but none of them are new.

To quote the younger generation: Meh.

 

Just FYI, for Ferraris, we're keeping a list.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific-sponsored-algar-ferrari/390554-lets-build-list-ferraris-sorted-horsepower-2.html#post143825892

.

 

lightweight(think F40)+1500HP

 

lightweight(think F40)+1500HP