Math boffins, pit time question: | FerrariChat

Math boffins, pit time question:

Discussion in 'F1' started by Bas, Apr 23, 2012.

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  1. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Something has been bothered me for a while now. What if car A has a pitstop at 3.0 seconds. Car B, fighting closely with car A, makes his stop in 3.5.

    Some say, car B lost .5 of a second to car A. I say, car B lost a full second to car A, because in the time he was waiting for .5 of a second, car A was .5 of a second under way already.
     
  2. Qvb

    Qvb F1 Rookie
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    It is the same .5 of a second. Imagine if they both stopped at exactly the same time, then the fast one would leave and the second one would leave .5 seconds behind, and, had they been pitted side by side, the first car would be .5 seconds ahead.
     
  3. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    two cars, each going flat-out full speed, equally, over the exact same distance. Each car stops, immediately, at the exact same time (and same point in space).

    car A stops for 3.0 sec and immediately resumes full speed.

    car B stops for 3.5 sec and immediately resumes full speed.

    How much time elapses between the cars arrival at the finish line?
     
  4. PCA Hack

    PCA Hack Formula Junior

    May 9, 2008
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    You just blew my mind!

    Here are the pit times from yesterday http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/04/22/2012-bahrain-grand-prix-tyre-strategies-pit-stops/

    It's got to be .5 advantage, not 1.0.

    For example: Car #1 = 21.00 second total stop including 3.0 seconds while the car is in the air.

    The time on the pit lane limiter was 18.00 seconds - assuming no driver error, each car spends 18.00 seconds on the limiter from pit-in to pit-out. If Car #2 spends 3.5 seconds in the air it still only takes 18:00 seconds to enter & exit the pits. Thus the difference remains .5 sec.

    Maybe...:)
     
  5. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

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    The laws of math are not suspended in F1. If a car takes and extra .5 of a second in the pits, that's all that happened - an extra .5. Whether the first car was moving or not at the time of the extra .5 makes no difference. The only addiotinal time taken is .5 of a second
     
  6. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    As long as the rate of accelleration from 0 to the mandated pit lane speed limit is equal, the .5 sec remains .5 sec. If the rate of acceleration is different, you would see it in the time on limiter value. In terms of distance on the race track, .5 at the Start finish is much greater than .5 at the slowest hairpin, but it is all still .5 sec. In laps and especially out laps are where time is often gained or lost.
     
  7. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Yes, but in the time the one driver is standing still for an extra .5 of a second, doesn't the gap grow bigger compared to the other driver since he is on his way already?
     
  8. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Makes sense...:)
     
  9. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    An interesting conundrum indeed..... As with all things in F1, it isn't as simple as it first appears and is the reason some of 'em (all?) now have dedicated mathematicians / statisticians in the garage.

    My 02c; an additional 0.5 second in the air is indeed just a half second lost. However, Bas' point I think is that if I exit the pit lane that much ahead and get back to speed the gap is "stretched" in that period - It may still be half a second timewise, but I've gained "hundreds" of yards over you.

    I think..... ;)

    Anyway, I found an interesting article on the topic by Dennis Simanaitis of R&T back in 2003 - Back then, stops were refueling time limited of course so he factors in the dis/advantage of more/less weight in addition to tire degradation and/or the advantage of being on fresh tires. There's some basic algebra involved, so if thats not your thing "beware".....

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/auto-news/tech/modeling-formula-1-pitstop-strategy

    The intro has a link to another interesting DS story on "The gaming of F1". Enjoy!

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  10. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Gee zuss.
    On a Monday.
    Gimmee a break my head still hurts.
    :)
     
  11. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    :D

    I did warn you! :p ;)

    He also postulates that fuzzy logic could be a field for further "improvement" - Now there's a headache inducing area of study......

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  12. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    All logic is fuzzy on Mondays.
    Most everything else is as well.
     
  13. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    think of this :

    Two cars on the "starting line". All accelerations, and top speeds, are equal. One car starts 0.5 seconds after the other.

    What's the time difference at the "finish line"?

    EVERYTHING the first car does, the second will also do ... including crossing the finish line ... just 0.5 seconds later.
     
  14. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    That's the point. You have to remember that you're talking about a distance in time, while you visually process a spatial distance. The latter may vary tremendously while the former stays constant.
     
  15. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    That's what I was trying to say! :) Thanks Florian ;)
     
  16. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    An interesting talking point - in reality, fuzzy logic is dead. The only ones who still apply it are those who learned it during the fuzzy hype in the early 90s.
    That hype only came up because the thought behind fuzzy logic - to create mathematical methods which 'translate' fuzzy terms that humans can understand (like 'big' or 'small') into numbers - was pitched with the slogans that computers could now 'think like humans'.
    This was picked up by the mass media, and 'think like humans' (in a sense of 'process human terms') became 'computers are now conscious". And there was the hype.

    Compared to the expectations, fuzzy logic has found very few actual applications.
     
  17. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +1

    I never said his postulation was correct though..... :) [This is from 2003 btw - Maybe there was still "hope", even then.....]

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  18. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    I of course never wanted to imply that you're a fuzzy fanboy! :D

    And while I'm ranting...


    ... game theory is another solution looking for a problem. At least in the technical area, I have yet to see an actual application that is not part of some purely academic construct.
     
  19. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Damn, I'm beginning to regret digging it up! :D

    ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  20. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    I hoped you'd come up with chaos theory now that I'm already in a rage! :( :D
     
  21. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

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    As has been pointed out by others you are confusing linear distance (the gap between the cars) with linear time. Half a second in the overall sequence of events is half a second, no more, no less.
    You are talking about the first car moving away while the second car is stationary. What you forget is that for a period of time the first car was stationary while the second car was still moving toward the pit stop (effectively narrowing the gap), so whatever additional time the first car gained when it moved away, was initially lost when it came in for its stop. The net effect is that the first car gained only .5 of a second after both cars had come into the pits, stopped and then moved again.
     
  22. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Much like two cars following one another around a circuit. As they brake and accelerate into and out of corners the gap in distance stretches while the gap in average speed remains constant.
     
  23. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    If there is a gap in average speed, neither the distance in space nor the distance in time remain constant!
     
  24. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Over the course of a lap there are increasing and decreasing gaps.
    The cars are hitting different (faster and slower) parts of the track at any given point in time but over a lap may equal one another in average pace ie; lap time.
     
  25. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

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    Wow, you would be an interesting student in math class. Average is quite a simple definition. If both cars averaged the same speed over a lap, time and again, their average speed, and therefore the gap between them, would be constant

    The gist of it all is that if two cars in a race were lapping at the identical average speed per lap and the time gap between them at a particular point of the track, say the start/finish line, was 5 seconds, and then they both took a pit stop, where one took 3 seconds and the other took 3.5 seconds, then they resumed racing at the identical average lap speed, the gap between them, when they next crossed the start finish line, (after they both completed their pit stops), would be 5.5 seconds.
    It's really that simple.
     

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