The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Good precise summary, especially like the tone of stating facts and correctly so as they tell a story all of their own.

Two questions
1 - How do we know the P4 engine mounts could not have fit a 3 litre engine and for that matter which 3 litre engine, has that been clarified?

2 - Is it me or did you sort of tail off with the ????

Thanks for the excellent post

 

Steve has shown numerous photos where the protruding engine mount lugs on the various Ferrari v12 blocks of that period differ in width and on some of them also differ in location on the block, I am hoping he can maybe identify each v12 engine in question in chronological order, show pics of their original use by Ferrari, and also show them as mounted in period correctly then compare thus to recent pics of Jims car. This in my mind is somewhat scrambled at the moment in this thread. Pulling it all into one reply could clear up this element, for me anyway.

Oh and of course I should add, it would be ideal if Jim could do the same to support his theory on the evolution of the chassis he has. Its an open debate at the end of the day.

 

JG hasn't dropped the vestigial P3 engine mounts claim as far as I have read. He's simply come up with yet another unsubstantiated story to justify the 3 litre capacity, non P4 engine in his car.

 

JG's chassis DP0003 does not have P4 engine mounts or P3 mounts for that matter. This car has never had a P4 engine in it. P4 plans were used as a guide to fit the projecting lug 4 litre P3/412P engine the chassis originally had installed. I have explained this a number of times. Here is one post showing how DP0003 has been adapted in the bulkhead area to fit a 3 litre engine. See here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145214619-post9880.html

 

That's how I read it based on your pics but wanted to double check.

So the original engine mount points on the JG chassis are for a projecting lug 4 litre P3/412P block (which I left as "????" above and are classed as the vestigal mounts and are not to p3 engine spec which they would need to be if the chassis was based on the original 0846 one) and the additional revised mounting points are for the 3 litre current engine which it came from Piper with (which again are not P4 engine spec)

Therefore neither sets of mounting points would have ever allowed either a P3 engine or a P4 engine to slot right into place unless adapters/spacers etc etc were used (which is something Ferrari would never have done according to MF on the original 0846)

 

JG claims that a P3 engine will fit his chassis as he got it from Piper, but it will not. It will fit the original P3/412P mountings on the side but the mountings in the bulkhead now have been adapted for a 3 litre engine so it won't now fit there.

The 3 and 4 litre engines can't just be swopped over without changes.

 

.....but although the P3 or 412P engine will fit the side mountings, they are not the vestigial P3 mountings as JG claims. See here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145342230-post10038.html and here:http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145337493-post10031.html

 

...and this is the less than ideal solution that's been used to mount the 312 F1 36v engine on the side.
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Ok so trying to think this through into a plausible situation.

I imagine that Jim would counter that the front mounts for the p3 engine set up were lost in the conversion to accept the 3 litre engine in the cars "newly discovered post Le Mans crash" life, and that the associated vestigal side mounts are original and still pointing to it being from the original 0846 in its p3 guise.

Taking that as a possibility, it still leaves the fact that a p4 engine will not simply slot into that engine bay without the need for spacers/brackets etc is my understanding? as a p4 block mounts up in a similar but slightly different way to the 3 litre engine currently installed in the chassis. A p4 engine would require similar types of brackets but the ones it currently has would not suit a p4 engine as they are specific to the current 3 litre F1 engine block the car now has installed.

So in Jims scenario, the original 0846 would have raced at Daytona and Le Mans as a P4 with such spacers/brackets, however the period pics of 0846 from that time show the engine is properly mounted as per the other P4s that were built from scratch.

Its still not making sense, even if the Mugello mule scenario could be proven.

The other element that still puzzles me is did the bellhousing of the gearbox stay in exactly the same location during these conversions or did that move forwards/backwards to suit the various engine blocks. Any relocation of the box would not affect the wheelbase as that remains the same regardless, only relocation of suspension members would change that, but it would affect the angle of the driveshafts to the wheels.

 

We all know Mr.Glickenhaus claims his car was rebuilt by Ferrari after LM67 with a 3 litre engine then was tested at Mugello then crashed again and was scrapped.
I sent a message to Ing.Forghieri to hear what he remembers about it, here's the translation of that email content:

"...
I would like to ask you something more about the P4: the same person I talked you about regarding those mysterious tests on the old Mugello is sure that one 330P4 chassis was modified to accept a lowered displacemente engine, a 3 liter one, during the mid-1967; do you remember if you ever made such an important modification?
I personally strongly doubt about it because of, first of all, the differences in mounting points position and the overall size between a 3000 engine and a 330-4 liter one, secondly because I can’t understand why to put a 3 liter engine on a car that would not race in a serie (not during the same 1967 season nor in the following one, 1968) in which the regulations accept an engine with such specification.
Could you please share some informations about?"

Here's the reply:

"I don’t know nothing about it. I wouldn’t want that someone not related to Ferrari did that but I doubt it.
Forghieri”

 

That is not a possibility. The mountings on DP0003 for the P3 (or 412P) engine the car had originally fitted are not like they were on 0846 when it was a P3. Did you see the links in this post here?:http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145367809-post10182.html

See picture below that David Piper gave to Nathan Beehl to show the original engine in the car and that it was built to P4 plans.
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I have tried to remain open minded to all possibilities, and these cars did have a hard life with lots of mods along the way , however it is hard to stay on the fence with the amount of recent hard evidence so weighted to one side at the moment.

 

The little brackets that are welded/permanently attached to the lower bulkhead crossbar to affix the bulkhead insulation (or the seats?) are different on DP0003 to how they were on the real 0846 which were more pointy in shape. More evidence the chassis is not the real 0846.
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scrapped works cars can only be revived by the factory.
Ferrari never sold the chassis/car to a client.

Ferrari can revive cars like:
0830
0842
0846
1032
1034

Or do we need a "ferrari historian" to make that decision?

 

Please bear in mind these are supposed to be the same chassis as claimed by Mr Glickenhaus.

The water carrying tubes that connect to the radiator are a different length and shape on DP0003 and 0846.

The tube, which is also different, that connects underneath and points down towards the front diagonally is also positioned further back towards the bulkhead on DP0003 than on the real 0846.

Remember all the other differences that have been found also. The whole front of these chassis are completely different.

We are not looking at the same chassis here.
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If you looked at pictures of 0846 in P3 form and also of 0846 in P3/4 form, would you be looking at the same chassis?

 

Did you already tried to contact Piper?

I have his email and phone number...

 

What would be the point of doing that?

 

Yes, with some modifications MADE BY FERRARI but yes, the exactly same chassis.
When we see pictures of DP0003 we are NOT seeing 0846.

 

Because you keep referring to Piper and in post 10130 you said the following: "And even more so, Miura has talked with Piper, if Piper is convinced he built it, maybe he'd be happy to answer 10 or so questions that come from the group." Isn't it about time you stopped trolling and actually contributed something to the thread yourself instead of just criticising other people's research?

 

An innocent question. If car was crashed and repaired/rebuilt, might we not see tubes in slightly different positions and lengths?

 

In this case the answer is NO if the repair was done by Ferrari. Unfortunately 0846 was not repaired by the factory after LM67 but sent to the scrapyard.

 

Ferrari scrapped it. Mugello did not happen so after LM the car did not crash again.
If they did not scrap it, the front and rear would have been same as Le Mans.
Why would a chassismaker modify an intact chassis; repair few tubes and ready for the body.

 

The bracket at the front near the windscreen to affix bodywork is a different shape on DP0003 as to how it was on the real 0846. Also, on the real 0846 it was welded on but is affixed using pop rivets or screws on DP0003.
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The oil cooler on the real 0846 and the other real P4s was secured by affixing it to chassis tubes/struts using Exhaust/Radiator Rubber Straps. This was not possible on Mr Glickenhaus's Piper replica chassis as it doesn't have any tubes/struts near enough to the oil cooler radiator connecting brackets to affix the bracket to connect the straps.

This is why Mr Glickenhaus has used the less than ideal solution of using aluminium sheet to secure the oil cooler radiator. Another example of major differences between the real 0846 and Glickenhaus DP0003.
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